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The Rube
09-18-2010, 03:56 PM
They have the leverage of the fact that the Big 10 schools will still need OOC games (and more of them than before). Call it collusion if you want, but demanding a fair payday for traveling to BTHC rinks is all about survival, right?

And that could backfire. Say, UAH wants 10K and they'll head to MN. DU wants 10K but MN has to go there.

OOC games could end up going to the lowest bidder in terms of travelling/payouts/etc.

blockski
09-18-2010, 03:57 PM
What powers do the smaller schools have, if the biggest schools leave the conference? They won't have the same media coverage. They won't have the same revenue. They won't have the same crowds.

The Twins don't have the same payroll has the Yankees, either. Less revenue doesn't mean no revenue. If this is the blow that kills a program, then that program wasn't on sound financial footing to begin with.

Let's say your worse case scenario is true - what should they do about it? Whine, like much of the talk on this board? Or start looking for some real solutions? Start working on getting other schools to start hockey - try and ink some scheduling arrangements, much like the old WCHA/Hockey East interlocking schedule back when HE was just getting started.

The Rube
09-18-2010, 04:05 PM
The Twins don't have the same payroll has the Yankees, either. Less revenue doesn't mean no revenue. If this is the blow that kills a program, then that program wasn't on sound financial footing to begin with.

Let's say your worse case scenario is true - what should they do about it? Whine, like much of the talk on this board? Or start looking for some real solutions? Start working on getting other schools to start hockey - try and ink some scheduling arrangements, much like the old WCHA/Hockey East interlocking schedule back when HE was just getting started.

You and I both know comparing pros to college is flawed.

And I never liked the bolded argument in your post. The teams that would/could be affected have positioned themselves to make the most out of their programs, by joining the conferences they are currently in. That's why they continue to thrive.

blockski
09-18-2010, 04:13 PM
You and I both know comparing pros to college is flawed.

And I never liked the bolded argument in your post. The teams that would/could be affected have positioned themselves to make the most out of their programs, by joining the conferences they are currently in. That's why they continue to thrive.

Except that this is the very problem with college hockey. Everybody wants in to one of the 4 stable conferences. And every time you add another team, you dilute the value to the existing members. UNO and Bemidji State add nothing to Wisconsin's value from the WCHA, they just mean more mouths to feed and fewer games of value to UW fans.

It's a great value for UNO and BSU, but not for the whole of college hockey. It's a tragedy of the commons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons). You can't keep doing that without eventually biting the hand that feeds you.


The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently, and solely and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen.

Penn State introduces a new actor to the situation, and offers an opportunity to fundamentally restructure the commons. If the BTHC or a BT Cup or whatever comes out of this results in a shorter conference season and more OOC games with smaller conferences, then that's a needed change for college hockey.

The Rube
09-18-2010, 04:18 PM
Except that this is the very problem with college hockey. Everybody wants in to one of the 4 stable conferences. And every time you add another team, you dilute the value to the existing members. UNO and Bemidji State add nothing to Wisconsin's value from the WCHA, they just mean more mouths to feed and fewer games of value to UW fans.

It's a great value for UNO and BSU, but not for the whole of college hockey. It's a tragedy of the commons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons). You can't keep doing that without eventually biting the hand that feeds you.



Penn State introduces a new actor to the situation, and offers an opportunity to fundamentally restructure the commons. If the BTHC or a BT Cup or whatever comes out of this results in a shorter conference season and more OOC games with smaller conferences, then that's a needed change for college hockey.

And frankly, I would rather have the WCHA split up into two conferences or I'd even settle having two divisions which would be sort of treated like two different conferences. Maybe have the MN schools and UND in one conference and the rest in the other. Yeah, I know it'll never happen, but at least it's a constructive idea.

moose97
09-18-2010, 04:20 PM
And that could backfire. Say, UAH wants 10K and they'll head to MN. DU wants 10K but MN has to go there.

OOC games could end up going to the lowest bidder in terms of travelling/payouts/etc.

Huh? That's not how guarantees work. No one says, "we want $10k, and you have to travel." Or, if they do, no one agrees to it. Why would the Gophers do that?

Guarantees are basically splitting the gate. If there is no gate for Minnesota, there's nothing for UMinn to split. The example I provided (BSU guaranteeing $10k to Bentley) was because that was a one time series (i.e., BSU didn't make the return trip to play in suburban Boston). If they had done a home and home, there would have been no guarantee. On the same note, there's no way BSU calls Bentley and says, "why don't you come and play two, and give us $10k?" That makes no sense at all.

Besides, guarantees happen all the time right now. Think about virtually every OOC series the Gophers have played recently. UMass, Bemidji State, New Hampshire, Wayne State (twice), UA_, Niagara, UAH, and Brown. In fact, since '99-'00, the only OOC series the Gophers have traveled for (outside the CHS) are Ohio State, Boston College, Boston Univ., and a single game at Bemidji State as a favor back in 2000. You think those teams didn't get a guarantee in return for not getting Minnesota back in their barn?

The Rube
09-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Huh? That's not how guarantees work. No one says, "we want $10k, and you have to travel." Or, if they do, no one agrees to it. Why would the Gophers do that?

Guarantees are basically splitting the gate. If there is no gate for Minnesota, there's nothing for UMinn to split. The example I provided (BSU guaranteeing $10 to Bentley) was because that was a one time series (i.e., BSU didn't make the return trip to play in suburban Boston). If they had done a home and home, there would have been no guarantee. On the same note, there's no way BSU calls Bentley and says, "why don't you come and play two, and give us $10k?" That makes no sense at all.

Besides, guarantees happen all the time right now. Think about virtually every OOC series the Gophers have played recently. UMass, Bemidji State, New Hampshire, Wayne State (twice), UA_, Niagara, UAH, and Brown. In fact, since '99-'00, the only OOC series the Gophers have traveled for (outside the CHS) are Ohio State, Boston College, Boston Univ., and a single game at Bemidji State as a favor back in 2000. You think those teams didn't get a guarantee in return for not getting Minnesota back in their barn?

I guess I didn't phrase it right. But you get the idea, I think, about the guarantees going to the lowest bidder.

jcarter7669
09-18-2010, 04:32 PM
Since this thread is pointless and cycledown is a ****ing ******, I feel that there is not other option.

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komey1
09-18-2010, 04:33 PM
The reality is the smaller schools need a REAL solution with or without a BTHC in order for college hockey to grow as a whole. While the BTHC provides realignment that I think will be needed, the problem is that it puts the draws all in one conference. Those teams already have a rep of not playing many (if any) OOC away from home.

I wish I knew a real solution, I don't.

cycledown
09-18-2010, 05:10 PM
Wait, if the status quo is fine... and adding a Penn State to the CCHA is an improvement for the lot of the other schools then how doesn't it save those programs?

That's not even inaccurate... its just plain wrong. Creating the BTHC is the problem... its the driver. Keeping the leagues in tact works for those programs.

Teams are already folding without the issue so why are they folding? Mismanagement? I dont know for sure but there is finger pointing at an issue that doesnt exist and the BTHC is not the driver

The Rube
09-18-2010, 05:12 PM
Teams are already folding without the issue so why are they folding? Mismanagement? I dont know for sure but there is finger pointing at an issue that doesnt exist and the BTHC is not the driver

We've already covered this. Try and keep up.

The. BTHC. Will. Be. The. Driver. For. The. Smaller. Schools. Currently. In. The. WCHA. And. The. CCHA.

And you STILL haven't named a single benefit for the smaller schools.

cycledown
09-18-2010, 05:17 PM
Since this thread is pointless and cycledown is a ****ing ******, I feel that there is not other option.

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You always point people out but like crazy eddie dont contribute
All the anti BTHC people want to do is point people and the issue out instead of talking about ideas/solutions on how to avoid folding of college hockey .

This is the same pattern when the Penn State discussions 10 years ago took place on this board.
The people that disagreed or the cronies like big blue developed USCHO pack mentality

The Rube
09-18-2010, 05:18 PM
You always point people out but like crazy eddie dont contribute
All the anti BTHC people want to do is point people and the issue out instead of talking about ideas/solutions on how to avoid folding of college hockey .

This is the same pattern when the Penn State discussions 10 years ago took place on this board.
The people that disagreed or the cronies like big blue developed USCHO pack mentality

The hypocrisy of this post is hilarious. :D

cycledown
09-18-2010, 05:24 PM
The hypocrisy of this post is hilarious. :D

Brent get over it schools are going to fold, whether you like it or not....and if they are folding now they are going to fold later. The BTHC isnt even in existence, its all fear on your part. Do yourself a favor write all the schools and ask them if they can reinvent their operations to stay afloat instead of blaming me. I have no control over an issue that doesnt exist and you have control over your hidden fears that havent come into existance yet.

Remember folks the BTHC is a speculative conversation and at this point the fear has been exposed. Try to discuss solution not point fingers at individuals that have no control, you can only be responsible for your own fears. Find solutions take heed!!!!!!

The Rube
09-18-2010, 05:26 PM
Brent get over it schools are going to fold, whether you like it or not....and if they are folding now they are going to fold later. The BTHC isnt even in existence, its all fear on your part. Do yourself a favor write all the schools and ask them if they can reinvent their operations to stay afloat instead of blaming me. I have no control over an issue that doesnt exist and you have control over your hidden fears that havent come into existance yet.

Who's blaming you for the downfall of the schools?

Have you answered the question about the benefits that smaller schools will have?

Patman
09-18-2010, 05:29 PM
Who says the status quo is fine? I've been arguing for a long time that the status quo is unsustainable. It is not fine.

Don't mistakenly equate the system you know and love with one that works. If the turmoil of the last few years with CHA and folding programs wasn't enough to underscore that for you, I don't know what is.

good, and don't mistakenly equate your new system you've grown to loves as one that works.

The CHA had many reasons for instability... I could go over a few of them. That being said, the solution is worse than status quo for these schools... and its a lot more than 5 or 6 schools.

You seem to forget that the community extends beyond just certain programs.

The greatest solution for our environmental problems is to have half the population kill itself... it'll be great for all those of us in the community going forward.

While the example is stark it points out where things go wrong. Our situation is more like this:

To help the game's problem in terms of tournament selection and to increase intra-sectional competition we need to reduce insularity. To reduce insularity we must... and this is where we usually get stuck... now we have something... its unique qualities means that you could see a situation where league schedules reduced... sure it might cost the programs for certain schools.... and maybe its 1 or 2 (or maybe its 6) and sure, it'll cost the prestige and resources for about 18 of them.... but you know what, we've done a great thing for the sport.

Well, sure, but what's the "sport" and "who" really counts?

moose97
09-18-2010, 05:33 PM
Brent get over it schools are going to fold, whether you like it or not....and if they are folding now they are going to fold later. The BTHC isnt even in existence, its all fear on your part. Do yourself a favor write all the schools and ask them if they can reinvent their operations to stay afloat instead of blaming me. I have no control over an issue that doesnt exist and you have control over your hidden fears that havent come into existance yet.

Can't believe I'm treading into this...

If you don't know the difference between Iona, Fairfield, Findlay and Wayne State folding up shop and Lake Superior State, Ferris State, Bowling Green Western Michigan and the like possibly folding, then I don't know what to tell you. And that doesn't even include adding in schools like Minnesota-Duluth, SCSU, Minnesota State, Bemidji State and others who have spent multi millions of dollars on rinks, scholarships and more on their programs (compared to Iona, Fairfiend, WSU and Findlay who each played D-I hockey for roughly 5 years each)...

The Rube
09-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Can't believe I'm treading into this...

If you don't know the difference between Iona, Fairfield, Findlay and Wayne State folding up shop and Lake Superior State, Ferris State, Bowling Green Western Michigan and the like possibly folding, then I don't know what to tell you. And that doesn't even include adding in schools like Minnesota-Duluth, SCSU, Minnesota State, Bemidji State and others who have spent multi millions of dollars on rinks, scholarships and more on their programs (compared to Iona, Fairfiend, WSU and Findlay who each played D-I hockey for roughly 5 years each)...

This.

cycledown
09-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Who's blaming you for the downfall of the schools?

Have you answered the question about the benefits that smaller schools will have?

Its up to the folding schools, BTHC is not in existance so I would say financial responsibility. I think you have some time Penn state is the only new BT team to go d1 and 88 million is quite a task


Remember I dont have 88 million, I only have 5 million. Not quite enough.

cycledown
09-18-2010, 05:37 PM
Can't believe I'm treading into this...

If you don't know the difference between Iona, Fairfield, Findlay and Wayne State folding up shop and Lake Superior State, Ferris State, Bowling Green Western Michigan and the like possibly folding, then I don't know what to tell you. And that doesn't even include adding in schools like Minnesota-Duluth, SCSU, Minnesota State, Bemidji State and others who have spent multi millions of dollars on rinks, scholarships and more on their programs (compared to Iona, Fairfiend, WSU and Findlay who each played D-I hockey for roughly 5 years each)...

Doesnt make sense does it? Its not the issue so what other mean possible for these teams to be folding?