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Onion Man
08-08-2010, 09:12 AM
This has been a tough stretch for all of us. The last Frozen Four we participated in was 1994. It hurts just to write that. Something has to give or else we are going to be competing with Brown for the worst Ivy men's hockey program. Maybe we are already there.

Brown > Harvard in the Ivy League.

LynahFan
08-08-2010, 05:16 PM
In reading the excepts that alslammerz provided, I was struck by the paragraph talking about players' ages in college hockey. If our kids are coming in as 18 and 19 year-olds and are going up against 21, 22 and 23 year-olds, how are we expected to compete? The experience level just isn't there.

:confused:

I see plenty of '87 and '88 birthdates on Harvard's roster for next year.

bothman
08-09-2010, 12:12 PM
Couple of thoughts:

1) Thanks for the well-wishes. This is my first and it's been quite a ride thus far. What a special time in life!

2) Brown has been the perennial doormat in the league for decades. Once a decade they produce a team that makes some noise inthe ECAC before resuming their place at the bottom. A good Brown team is good for the ECAC and thus, good for Harvard so I hope they can build on last season's nice play-off run.

3) Harvard does have some overage players, but last I checked (last year), Harvard had the youngest roster in the ECAC. Let's look at averages and not make exceptions the rules.

4) The Leblanc signing is a big deal and a huge loss for Harvard. As a very wise man once told me after Louis signed with Harvard "Just remember that Paul Kariya is not walking through that door". He was right, but for those following Canada's Junior team scrimmages, Louis has been the star thus far. It takes time to adjust to college hockey and play againsty kids who are between 1-6 yrs older than you. I think Louis was poised for a breakoput year this year (35+ points) and would have challenged for the league MVP subject to Harvard's performance as a team. Also, not that he would have replaced Louis, but this makes the Andrew Calof punch to the gut hurt even more.

5) I don't love the non-conference schedule, but this year, having some weaker non-conference games will probably be a blessing. Harvard is going to struggle to score and certain players are going to have to step it up big time (Fallstrom, Killorn, McCollem, etc), not to mention the goalies.

6) Harvard of the 1980s was BC of today. Even comparing Harvard to BC is crazy right now. BC will win every recruit from Harvard these days, the only saving grace is if the candidate and parents really value education and if there is prior lineage.

Onion Man
08-09-2010, 12:18 PM
6) Harvard of the 1980s was BC of today.

I LOVE the continued Crimson arrogance. Harvard won 3 national titles in the 80s? Harvard went to 6 (?) Frozen Fours in that decade? I have no idea how many Beanpots Harvard won in the 80s nor BC won this decade, but a hockey comparison between BC and Harvard on the ice is apples to oranges.

Of course academics are stronger at Harvard, but I dont think Boston College is on par with North Dakota or Maine for academic futility either. Seems to me that a top recruit can be proud of a BC education on top of a national title ring. The bottom line is Donato is dreadful. Its not like he doesn't get top recruits (Kilorn, LeBlanc, the Biegas). He's incompetent as a bench boss, pure and simple.

Finally and, most important, Brown will win an a national hockey championship before Harvard will win their next. Take that to the bank. :)

ps - Congrats on your new addition.

bothman
08-09-2010, 12:24 PM
I LOVE the continued Crimson arrogance. Harvard won 3 national titles in the 80s? Harvard went to 6 (?) Frozen Fours in that decade? I have no idea how many Beanpots Harvard won in the 80s nor BC won this decade, but a hockey comparison between BC and Harvard on the ice is apples to oranges.



Harvard was the dominant hockey program in the East in the 1980s (save Olympic years when they had major losses). BC is that program today. Hence my analogy. Take away 1980, 1984, and 1988 Olympic seasons - and Harvard's resume is fairly impressive.

At one point, I did the number crunching W-L record, # of Final Fours, # of NCAA Finals - 3, etc - but don't have time to do it again.

J.D.
08-09-2010, 12:33 PM
If our kids are coming in as 18 and 19 year-olds and are going up against 21, 22 and 23 year-olds, how are we expected to compete? The experience level just isn't there.

I don't like the idea of 20-21 year old freshmen either, but Harvard is hardly the only school to have "young" freshmen.


Couple of thoughts:
3) Harvard does have some overage players, but last I checked (last year), Harvard had the youngest roster in the ECAC. Let's look at averages and not make exceptions the rules.

A couple years ago I know BC had the youngest team in the country. Not sure how the ECAC compares to other leagues in terms of average age though.


4) The Leblanc signing is a big deal and a huge loss for Harvard. As a very wise man once told me after Louis signed with Harvard "Just remember that Paul Kariya is not walking through that door". He was right, but for those following Canada's Junior team scrimmages, Louis has been the star thus far. It takes time to adjust to college hockey and play againsty kids who are between 1-6 yrs older than you. I think Louis was poised for a breakoput year this year (35+ points) and would have challenged for the league MVP subject to Harvard's performance as a team.

Looking at where Leblanc and Kreider were drafted, I'll always wonder what kind of year Louis would have had if he went to BC...

Puck Swami
08-09-2010, 01:43 PM
Harvard was the dominant hockey program in the East in the 1980s (save Olympic years when they had major losses). BC is that program today. Hence my analogy. Take away 1980, 1984, and 1988 Olympic seasons - and Harvard's resume is fairly impressive.

At one point, I did the number crunching W-L record, # of Final Fours, # of NCAA Finals - 3, etc - but don't have time to do it again.

Harvard was able to really take advantage of several key trends in that era to roster some awesome teams.

1) The Bobby Orr Boom: Boston kids who started playing hockey in the early 70s as kids and came of age in the mid 80s expanded the talent pool. Harvard was able to exploit some the cream of that larger talent pool.

2) The pinnacle era of offensive hockey - Tha 1980s were an era of freewheeling offensive hockey in the era before defensive systems, video scouting and goaltending styles, coaching and equipment were revolutionzed in the 90s. Harvard's speedy roll-four-lines of skaters were perfect for that era where 7-5 scores were the norm. That's all changed now, as defensive coaching, scouting and goaltending have caught up to skaters. You just don't see a lot of 5-8 defensemen like H's Mark Benning anymore, who ruled in that era.

3) Olympic returns: When you have players like Scott Fusco and Lane MacDonald and Allen Borbeau turning down the NHL to come back from the Olympics and play for Harvard again after the Olympics, you have the recipe for explosively talented teams. Those guys were vastly improved players playing 60 game pre-Olympic tours, and their returns to Harvard put them at a whole different level. With NHL players comprising Olympic players today, you don't have that extra infusion of talent anymore.

Hokydad
08-09-2010, 05:00 PM
I don't like the idea of 20-21 year old freshmen either, but Harvard is hardly the only school to have "young" freshmen.



A couple years ago I know BC had the youngest team in the country. Not sure how the ECAC compares to other leagues in terms of average age though.



Looking at where Leblanc and Kreider were drafted, I'll always wonder what kind of year Louis would have had if he went to BC...

Not much better. BC holds their young players back a hair to blend them in and learn their style of play. They dont want the Kreiders of the world dominating and leaving.

Hokydad
08-09-2010, 05:02 PM
Finally and, most important, Brown will win an a national hockey championship before Harvard will win their next. Take that to the bank. :)(Quote)

Dont count on it....

I was very impressed with what Brown did at the end of the year but they are still getting the kids after they are told no at Harvard, BC, BU etc. That will not change because they made it to ECAC finals once.

alslammerz
08-09-2010, 06:05 PM
Harvard was the dominant hockey program in the East in the 1980s (save Olympic years when they had major losses). BC is that program today. Hence my analogy. Take away 1980, 1984, and 1988 Olympic seasons - and Harvard's resume is fairly impressive.

At one point, I did the number crunching W-L record, # of Final Fours, # of NCAA Finals - 3, etc - but don't have time to do it again.

Not that it matters a whole lot for this year but:

Harvard in the 1980s: 1 National Championship, Twice Runners-Up, 5 Frozen Fours, 3 additional NCAA appearances, 3 Hobey Bakers, 6 Olympians, 2 Beanpots.

Not quite BC's numbers 3 national titles, 6 Frozen Fours, and 3 Beanpots in the 2000s, but pretty close. Or, in other words, miles above Brown.

As for these past couple of years, Brown needs to replicate their post-season success in the regular season before we can start comparing them to any other program. Over the 22 game regular season, they have been decidedly the 6th Ivy. In March, they've been much better than every Ivy but Cornell. But I'll take the larger sample size every time.

Which still has nothing to do with Harvard this upcoming season. Save for a a couple of top teams, the rest of the league seems like a crapshoot to me. Any team could string together wins and take advantage. Will that be the Cantabs? Unclear.

PS- If this post seems grumpy, the Kovy decision has irritated me to no end. I would usually try to be more sympathetic. I actually don't mind seeing Brown's success (well, for 20 out of 22 ECAC games anyway.)

J.D.
08-09-2010, 11:32 PM
Not much better. BC holds their young players back a hair to blend them in and learn their style of play. They dont want the Kreiders of the world dominating and leaving.

Leblanc was .7419 PPG on a team with not nearly the talent of BC
Kreider was .6053

I wouldn't say York holds his young players back. Looking back on some first round picks he's had:

Reasoner
Kobasew

Those two weren't held back at all. They dominated from the start. If you can help the team win, you're gonna be in there. Kreider wasn't really held back either. He was given ice time from the start, just took him a while to get going.

Onion Man
08-10-2010, 06:26 AM
Finally and, most important, Brown will win an a national hockey championship before Harvard will win their next. Take that to the bank. :)(Quote)

Dont count on it....

I was very impressed with what Brown did at the end of the year but they are still getting the kids after they are told no at Harvard, BC, BU etc. That will not change because they made it to ECAC finals once.

It may not happen for 20+ years, but it will happen. Now that Brown is Grillo-free, I think you may actually see this program finally turn around. The series vs. Yale was extremely uplifting last spring.

Brown needs their "Drury" or their "Reasoner", a kid who help turn the program around and gets other kids to follow. Harvard already gets those kids and they still fail.

Hokydad
08-10-2010, 08:47 AM
It may not happen for 20+ years, but it will happen. Now that Brown is Grillo-free, I think you may actually see this program finally turn around. The series vs. Yale was extremely uplifting last spring.

Brown needs their "Drury" or their "Reasoner", a kid who help turn the program around and gets other kids to follow. Harvard already gets those kids and they still fail.

I hope so. The thought of Grillo being involved with the running of ADM and USA hockey devlopment makies me sick.

The key to Brown's chances is their recruiting and coaching. They have a great new staff and should be fun to watch. Keefe is a go getter

My subtle point is that neither will win one for sometime because D1 programs are bordeline jr teams now where Harvrad and Brown still have high standards. Same reason why Harvard etc are not natl football contenders

sterlippo1
08-10-2010, 10:11 AM
[QUOTE=J.D.;4836174]I don't like the idea of 20-21 year old freshmen either, but Harvard is hardly the only school to have "young" freshmen.



A couple years ago I know BC had the youngest team in the country. Not sure how the ECAC compares to other leagues in terms of average age though.



i did the number crunching last year and posted it on the BC thread i think and BC was in fact the youngest team in D1 last year, i want to say 18 yrs 10 months and a surprise for second youngest, Michigan by 4 months or so per player

Hokydad
08-10-2010, 10:31 AM
[QUOTE=J.D.;4836174]I don't like the idea of 20-21 year old freshmen either, but Harvard is hardly the only school to have "young" freshmen.



A couple years ago I know BC had the youngest team in the country. Not sure how the ECAC compares to other leagues in terms of average age though.



i did the number crunching last year and posted it on the BC thread i think and BC was in fact the youngest team in D1 last year, i want to say 18 yrs 10 months and a surprise for second youngest, Michigan by 4 months or so per player

please crunch again, no way they were 18 and 10 months.

Puck Swami
08-10-2010, 10:58 AM
[QUOTE=sterlippo1;4836814]

please crunch again, no way they were 18 and 10 months.

I think he meant the freshman class age, not the team age.

JCrawford
08-10-2010, 11:08 AM
please crunch again, no way they were 18 and 10 months.

BC's freshman class last year, as of today, averages 19 years, 9 months. So it's very conceivable that they were 18 years, 10 months on average coming in last season.

J.D.
08-10-2010, 11:13 AM
Hokydad, can you please learn how to use the quote function?

Hokydad
08-10-2010, 12:03 PM
Hokydad, can you please learn how to use the quote function?

I hit the button and what comes up comes up...

I have noticed a hair off ..

Hokydad
08-10-2010, 12:03 PM
[QUOTE=Hokydad;4836835]

I think he meant the freshman class age, not the team age.

Agreed and if so no question correct.