HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

[Skate79]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

I got up this morning needing a good laugh. Thanks Eagle for injecting some humor into my day. Clueless doesn't even begin to describe you.

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

I got up this morning needing a good laugh. Thanks Eagle for injecting some humor into my day. Clueless doesn't even begin to describe you.

Oh please, next thing you'll starting posting here how great Harvard hockey is and Yale stinks... right? You want laughable, look at Donato. You want champions, look at York and Parker... and start looking at Yale.

[Skate79]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

Oh please, next thing you'll starting posting here how great Harvard hockey is and Yale stinks... right? You want laughable, look at Donato. You want champions, look at York and Parker... and start looking at Yale.

You obviously haven't read my posts lately. I've questioned and even lambasted the team's efforts and that of the coaching staff. Harvard hockey is not great, not even close, and I actually went over to the Yale thread to congratulate them on their ranking. They deserve it.

It isn't hard to sell a program that offers a full ride and less than challenging academics. BC and BU are hockey factories that aren't interested in graduating their players. Hell, they only hope their players can remember how to spell their names correctly on the application form.

[4faz]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

Now Harvard may have a different set of criteria other than winning games that may keep Teddy employed,

God I hope not. This nice guy is finishing last in Harvard hockey history. In the past three years, which are the best measure of Donato's ability, as all of the players in these three years were recruited by him and not Mazz, we've won 19(?) games and lost what, north of 50? I believe that's the worst three year stretch in Harvard hockey history, at a time when Yale is #1. I was the first guy on this board at the end of the season last year to say, "I love him, but he's gotta go." If I recall Alonzo agreed. I haven't come back until tonight, because I figured, time is tight, so what's the point? There is no hope for this program as long as he is coach. Harvard hockey at this point is Teddy's Titanic. He may be a great guy, but this program is demonstrably in shambles. Harvard hockey is too important to too many people, above all the players, to observe some sort of Ivy League unwritten genteel rule that it's unseemly to fire coaches for poor performance. The hockey futures of some great players during Donato's tenure have been destroyed by his inabiilty to develop talent. It would be nice to see the current players win some games, but there's a part of me that just wants this season and the Donato era to be over as soon as possible so they'll be reason to come to this board more than once a year, or drive 200 miles to see a game again. I've been following Harvard hockey for 40 years. Watched them play Michigan Tech(?) in the early 70s NCAA semi-finals at the Garden at roughly age seven. Went to the Frozen Four in Providence in 1986 while I was attending Harvard, the 1989 Beanpot. I've been to Albany every time Harvard has. Some of my greatest memories. And what I'm seeing now is just so sad. Donato's enormous contributions as a player can't be factored into the decision about his future at Harvard. This coach needs to be put out of our misery, or there won't be a "new beginning." At the end of the season, the best way for Donato to express his love for the program will be to do the honorable thing and resign of his own accord.

[CMKnight]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

Teddy is doing a good job with the talent he's got. As an educator he's peerless. We do not need a new coach at Harvard, just managed expectations for some lunatic fringe fans. The bottom line is that Harvard is never going to ever compete for a national title in the present landscape. Harvard will never be able to compete for the brass ring and probably no ECAC school ( Yale included ) will once push comes to shove in March. The talent simply isn't there.

Teddy will have a long legacy of at Harvard that will be steeped in his contributions as an educator, not in wins and losses. When players come to Harvard it's because hockey is not in the forefront of their lives anymore. Players on this team enjoy playing hockey but it is not life and death like it is for kids at major programs. Things have changed over the years but Harvard still puts out a team that competes night in and night out and they are fun to watch.

Teddy is a family guy first and foremeost. One of the reasons that he took this job is that it's a family friendly job that's his for as long as he wants it. He enjoys working with the players but he's not some 32 yr old guy with no family who's obsessed with hockey. Teddy embraces his role as an educator and he knows his players have other priorities besides hockey. ( Believe me, most of these kids wish this season ended tomorrow at this point. ) Teddy's earned his glide and given plenty to Harvard over the years. Life's a two way street. Teddy is the best fit for a Harvard coach you could find and he's been highly successful in helping kids enjoy playing hockey for him. He's a players' coach who wants them to enjoy their college experience, not expereinjce drudgery playing something that wll end once they graduate. It only makes sense.

If we get more talent in the coming years maybe things may look up but right now Teddy's doing the best job with the limited talent he's got.

[Hokydad]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

That is BS.

Everything about him as a person, educator, good priorities dead on. Rest is all bs.

Harvards issue is who they take. They take to many players who have reputations as blue chippers but peaked at 16-18, not trending up. Why take 4th liners fron natl team? Because they played there? Many, many high end kids would love to do both, school and hockey.
Yale will be there in the end. For crying out loud, Brown is bringing in better players and fielding a better product and you want to talk about a tough place to recruit at.

Yale will be there in the end and is building a great pipeline. Dont bs with admin either. they had and will get players in who have to take SAT test 4-6 times to get 1400-1500. Great program and great hockey, if they wanted it to be. Where is Nate Lehman when you need him? OH, he is building a wagon with 10 times more restrictions. Look no further than Wayne Simpson and John Simpson as 2 local players who Harvard should have stalked. Great students and great players. Got zero love from Harvard because they had to focus on the next natl team 4th liner or Western Canadian Sid Finch

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

Teddy is doing a good job with the talent he's got. As an educator he's peerless. We do not need a new coach at Harvard, just managed expectations for some lunatic fringe fans. The bottom line is that Harvard is never going to ever compete for a national title in the present landscape. Harvard will never be able to compete for the brass ring and probably no ECAC school ( Yale included ) will once push comes to shove in March. The talent simply isn't there.

Seriously? So '89 banner, and the two runner up trophies, it was just an anomoly? It could not have been better coaching/coaching staff under Cleary?!

Do you seriously consider three consecutive years of 9 wins a [good] legacy because you "think" Donato is a great educator?! What in the heck are are you smoking?! Truth be told, Donato was a very good college player (no Kariya for certain, but up there for a Harvard player), he was a mediocre/injury prone NHL'er who was traded every year, and has proven himself as a rotten coach. Too much of the Ivy/Harvard/upper-lip snobbery-pride will keep many from admitting out loud "I think we made a mistake selecting Donato as head coach" and the program is suffering for it. Does Harvard want a competitive program or club for snotty prep school kids? Do you want to compete in D-1, or would you rather tout the fact your players stay 4 years (which by the way has not been the trend under Donato with some key early departures).

However, since there is some made up notion that one who coaches must be an alum; now that he has come back to Harvard the expectation is that he obviously holds the skills to be a great coach! LOL, so how is that working out?! If you are Cornell, et. al., you are glad Donato is coaching at Harvard.

Skate79 mentioned hockey farms, relating to BU and BC. Then why is Yale so good right now? Se above, must be that anomoly; or you truly believe the Ivies cannot compete with the other "hockey farms" or degenerates you turn your nose to. SO why is Yale seemingly winning the recruiting wars for the last three years in the ECAC with such tight Ivy League restrictions? How about Cornell's success? Sure, Harvard is not about athletics, but they are the first to tell you they've 41 D-1 programs.

Harvard is not poised to win hockey games with Donato as coach; maybe the lesson he is teaching to his students is the humility of losing. Any way you slice it, as a hockey fan and alum, I feel sorry for the program and echo the thoughts of 4faz. Teddy got the gig because he was shown the door at one NHL club due to performance and picked up another low-cash stinky 1 year deal with the Bruins, while Scalise & Co. were firing Mazz; opportunity knocked, Donato jumped, and the rest is Harvard Hockey history.

History is not always pretty.

[sam12]

Seriously? So '89 banner, and the two runner up trophies, it was just an anomoly? It could not have been better coaching/coaching staff under Cleary?!

Do you seriously consider three consecutive years of 9 wins a [good] legacy because you "think" Donato is a great educator?! What in the heck are are you smoking?! Truth be told, Donato was a very good college player (no Kariya for certain, but up there for a Harvard player), he was a mediocre/injury prone NHL'er who was traded every year, and has proven himself as a rotten coach. Too much of the Ivy/Harvard/upper-lip snobbery-pride will keep many from admitting out loud "I think we made a mistake selecting Donato as head coach" and the program is suffering for it. Does Harvard want a competitive program or club for snotty prep school kids? Do you want to compete in D-1, or would you rather tout the fact your players stay 4 years (which by the way has not been the trend under Donato with some key early departures).

However, since there is some made up notion that one who coaches must be an alum; now that he has come back to Harvard the expectation is that he obviously holds the skills to be a great coach! LOL, so how is that working out?! If you are Cornell, et. al., you are glad Donato is coaching at Harvard.

Skate79 mentioned hockey farms, relating to BU and BC. Then why is Yale so good right now? Se above, must be that anomoly; or you truly believe the Ivies cannot compete with the other "hockey farms" or degenerates you turn your nose to. SO why is Yale seemingly winning the recruiting wars for the last three years in the ECAC with such tight Ivy League restrictions? How about Cornell's success? Sure, Harvard is not about athletics, but they are the first to tell you they've 41 D-1 programs.

Harvard is not poised to win hockey games with Donato as coach; maybe the lesson he is teaching to his students is the humility of losing. Any way you slice it, as a hockey fan and alum, I feel sorry for the program and echo the thoughts of 4faz. Teddy got the gig because he was shown the door at one NHL club due to performance and picked up another low-cash stinky 1 year deal with the Bruins, while Scalise & Co. were firing Mazz; opportunity knocked, Donato jumped, and the rest is Harvard Hockey history.

History is not always pretty.

I'm not sure what you bias is against western canadians, but since there are 3 on harvard, I doubt that is our problem. In fact, in terms of ivies, every other one has more western candadians than us(and make it a point to recruit and get players from out there), and every one is doing better than us. Teddy doesn't seem to realize that a) prep hockey is dying and b)even talented players have a difficult time adapting to college coming from weak leagues as true freshmen. As a choice, teddy has a young team, while princeton cornell and the other ivies purposely choose slightly older players.

Furthermore, the talent argument doesn't hold up at all under any scrutiny. Harvards problem is not an ivy wide problem, which should be the only piece of evidence needed to debunk this myth(although there is certainly much more proof). I'm not on the inner circle of harvard hockey, but to say these kids don't put hockey first and want the season to end is crazy. I know only a couple of the players, but this seems the height of implausibility.
Not being an insider(or even really in touch with the boston area), this may be obvious....but what proof is there that teddy is this great 'educator' and all the players love him? All I see is losses, and the couple players I talked with were pretty down about everything(understandably) and weren't exactly gushing with how much they love donato(though they didn't say anything negative about him, but what player would). Again, I'm not really in the loop, but a lot of stuff(talent argument, stuff about teddy) said on here is put forward with absolutely no evidence, not even anecdotal evidence.

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

I'm not sure what you bias is against western canadians, but since there are 3 on harvard, I doubt that is our problem. In fact, in terms of ivies, every other one has more western candadians than us(and make it a point to recruit and get players from out there), and every one is doing better than us. Teddy doesn't seem to realize that a) prep hockey is dying and b)even talented players have a difficult time adapting to college coming from weak leagues as true freshmen. As a choice, teddy has a young team, while princeton cornell and the other ivies purposely choose slightly older players.

Furthermore, the talent argument doesn't hold up at all under any scrutiny. Harvards problem is not an ivy wide problem, which should be the only piece of evidence needed to debunk this myth(although there is certainly much more proof). I'm not on the inner circle of harvard hockey, but to say these kids don't put hockey first and want the season to end is crazy. I know only a couple of the players, but this seems the height of implausibility.
Not being an insider(or even really in touch with the boston area), this may be obvious....but what proof is there that teddy is this great 'educator' and all the players love him? All I see is losses, and the couple players I talked with were pretty down about everything(understandably) and weren't exactly gushing with how much they love donato(though they didn't say anything negative about him, but what player would). Again, I'm not really in the loop, but a lot of stuff(talent argument, stuff about teddy) said on here is put forward with absolutely no evidence, not even anecdotal evidence.

My comment was not about Kariya being a Canadian, it was about Kariya being a very fine college hockey athlete - while Donato was a very good college hockey athlete he certainly was no Paul Kariya. Donato got the puck that bounced in for the game winner in '89; therefore, he is given hero status (just like Kobesaw in '01). The more Canucks, the better; at least Cornell subscribes to that success.

I agree with you, and the poster below; Donato is not an educator, or a good coach for that matter. He needs to coach and get wins otherwise it is Harvard College Club Hockey. Good lord, the girl's from Radcliffe could beat on this Harvard squad under Donato's reign of terror.

The rationale for my posting and ranting about this subject o'er the last three years, is really a manifestation of my sadness on seeing how Donato has damaged this program. Just because Donato has a Harvard degree does not mean he is capable of coaching a D-1 team. I think Scalise made a false presumption that Donato can coach a D-1 hockey team when he has in fact never coached. Well, maybe Donato once coached a Pee Wee program at the MDC rink in Weymouth. Then again, a Pee Wee team from Weymouth would have their way with Donato's team these last few years.

Harvard is becoming the laughing stock of the ECAC, but I think they'll get 8 wins this season.

[bothman]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

This thread is amusing. Let's get a couple of things straight:

1) Eaglehockeydude - you must be a fairly miserable guy to spit the kind of relentless venom that you do towards Donato & Harvard Hockey in general. If you feel so strongly, as opposed to posting your rants on a message board that no one with any power reads, I suggest you call up Harvard's Athletic Department or the Friends of Harvard Hockey. Something tells me you don't have the guts to go the distance.

2) Yale & Brown - I love how people are pointing to Yale & Brown. Why don't we call out Union and some other teams across the country who happen to be having a good year or a few good years? Anyone else make conveinent sense? I love the fact that Yale has a great program right now, but let's also remember that they have been shining Harvard's jocks in hockey for as long as I can remember, save an outlier year or two. If you want to call out a BU or BC (programs that are perennially great), go for it. But until Yale or Brown can demonstrate some staying power for more than a few years, to me they are Palm Pilots of 10 years ago....cool for a while, but who has one of those now?

3) Donato - These last two years have been very, very humbling. I can't speak to any lifetime contracts, but even Donato's most loyal supporters would admit that these have been some very lean Harvard teams. Something has got to give here. If Donato truly loves Harvard and the product that he has put forth of late continues, then I think he would step down, as painful as that would be for him.

4) Talent - Whomever said that Harvard hasn't landed talent doesn't follow recruiting and only judges the players by what they have seen on the ice these last few years - and even first round draft pick Louis Leblanc - his freshman season isn't even in the Top 20 at Harvard and we know he will be a very good NHL player. That may be that Donato has a very hard time molding talent into a cohesive unit that plays within a system that makes the sum of the parts greater than the individual talent. Back to the talent - let's look at it for a bit:

Alex Fallstrom - Chose Harvard over Yale and is a high round draft pick of the Bruins
Ryan Grimshaw - Chose Harvard over Michigan & Cornell
Alex Killorn - Chose Harvard over BC & BU and is a high round draft pick of the Lightning
Danny Biega - Chose Harvard over BC & BU and is a high round draft pick of the Hurricanes
Pat McNally (2011) - Chose Harvard over Yale and is a high round draft pick of Vancouver
Max Everson (2011) - Chose Harvard over Minnesota and will be a high round draft pick this June
Petr Placek (2011) Chose Harvard over Cornell and will be a high round draft pick this June
Steve Michalek (2011) Chose Harvard and will be drafted this June

While Donato's primary job is to win hockey games, the academics do matter. Harvard would never stand for the mockery guys like Jack Parker make of their universities by alllowing guys to focus solely on hockey for the 2nd semester without ever stepping foot in a classroom.

CMKnight - I think your points aren't without some truth, but I think they go a little too far. Harvard is a serious place. It's not North Dakota where you really are just playing hockey and the kids that go to Harvard clearly know this when they choose it over a WCHA or Hockey East school. However, to think that Harvard can't be a stepping stone to the big league is rubbish and there are players at Harvard now who have full intentions of playing in the 'Show'.

[CMKnight]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

It may be convenient for some to blame Teddy but the fact is it's the kids that play the game. If they have NHL ambitions or capabilities then what are they showing us? Nothing, because they don't exist. Petr Placek? If you liked Rob Fried or Killorn ( on a bad night) your going to love Sleepy Pete. This is the danger of over-hyping kids coming to Harvard because someone gets a hold of a press clipping that says a kid can play. There are no NHL calibre players on Harvard's team. The closest you will find is D. Biega and he's got AHL/European club written all over him. Give him 2 more yrs in the league and he may not even have that. These days the chances aren't good at playing at Harvard and making the NHL. They are much better at BC/BU. Leblanc just touched his toes in the water here and ran in order to preserve any chance of still making the show.



The last ECAC team to win the title was Harvard in ' 89. The Berlin Wall was still standing, and nobody had heard of the internet then. Guess what? Things change in college hockey, too. No way, no how will an ECAC team ever capture the natioanal title. Dream on.



Teddy is an educator first and foremost and that's why he was hired for the post. The kids love him and he helps them enjoy the game. This isn't BC where the chuckleheads walk right past admissions and never study. Those guys only care about hockey, not school. Harvard may get some good players but if they really had hockey as their # 1 thing they wouldn't be there in the first place. Education is their top thing--- it was even Leblance's top priority for one year anyway. If players only cared about hockey and winning natioanls titles they wouldn't go Harvard in the first place, they' d go to BC/BU. That's the reality. These days, take a college hockey team who collectively have education as their # 1 priority and schedule them vs BU/BC and who's going to win 7 out of 10 times?



Mark Mazzolini tried to force Harvard players to make a more serious commitment to hockey and some players didn't like it. Mazzoini was not an educator but a insensitive tyrant who hurt players and parents feelings alike. He could not understand the kids he coached not wanting hockey to be the top thing in their lives, and they could not accept his demands. In the end, he was a bad fit because he was not an educator first. Say what you want but for every Red Berensen or Fat Mike there are a bunch of failures who are neither coaches nor educators. I think that experience went a long way toward Harvard wanting a coach who was an educator first and foremeost. That's where Teddy shines and Harvard is better off for it.



You get rid of Teddy and be careful what you get. What message do you send out to people about what Harvard values? Selfish people only look at the wins and losses and ignore the fact that the players are being treated as humans, not cattle. Teddy's players are happy and they will look back on their college careers as happy times. That's something that BC fans probably can't fathom unless there are national titles involved.

[Puck Swami]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

The Harvard players I knew in the 80s and early 90s were intensely competitive people who wanted to win NCAA titles and do well in school. Fun was a third priority, and playing in the NHL was icing on the cake, rather than a developmental stepping stone. Are you really suggesting today's Harvard players have different priorities?

I think Harvard can be relevant nationally with the right coaching staff. If RIT can be a Frozen Four team, so can Harvard.

[H60Hockey]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

For the record Teddy had nothing to do with the OT winner in 1989; Ed Krayer.

Frankly the notion that Donato's primary function is to educate the boys is nonsense. There several thousand members of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences who handle that task... pretty well. Donato's was hired for one purpose; to return Harvard to a Tier 1 level . Of course the University needed to replace Mazzolini and Teddy seemed a perfect replacement at the time. Early on there was evidence that the kids loved him and would skate through brick walls for him. But he has not turned out to be that perfect fit and the kids are now just lost, the lowest scoring team in D1.

Remember though, they are hockey players and, all else understood, they came to Harvard to play the game as hard as they can every night. And like all true hockey players they HATE losing. When they put on that sweater before each game they want more than anything to win this for themselves, for Harvard and for all those who wore the sweater before them. Education is the last thing on their minds.

I wish Teddy could have formed this young group of very good players into a winning team; bet Billy still could. However clearly the past seven years has shown us that Teddy is just not up to the job. He is a wonderful man, but we need a change.

[sam12]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

sorry eaglefan....I accidentally quoted you when I meant to quote hokydad with regards to the western canadian bias. Still, all my comments still stand.

[bothman]

Re: HARVARD CRIMSON 2010-2011 - A New Beginning

Good article in the Globe on incoming recruit Colin Blackwell (2012):

http://www.boston.com/sports/schools...re_on_the_ice/