Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Have any of yours ever been more than 140 characters.

You have perfected drive-by posting.

Mention paying for something by check...you'll get a novel sized rant about how you're a ****** for still using checks.

And agree about jnacc. Don't agree with him either, but at least he makes his points clear and coherent.

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Mention paying for something by check...you'll get a novel sized rant about how you're a ****** for still using checks.

And agree about jnacc. Don't agree with him either, but at least he makes his points clear and coherent.

Meh.

Ever since jnacc called me fat in the WJC thread because he was too stupid to figure out how rep worked, I've been uninterested in giving him credit for anything.

[The Rube]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Mention paying for something by check...you'll get a novel sized rant about how you're a ****** for still using checks.

Truth. Trust me, I know.

[Dirty]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Truth. Trust me, I know.

Die.

[Jockstock]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Die.

Don't mess with Dirty.

[Dirty]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Don't mess with Dirty.

My Hirschy and you're gonna be in trouble
Hey la, hey la my Hirschy's back
If you see him come, better cut out on the double
Hey la, hey la my Hirschy's back

[jnacc]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Meh.

Ever since jnacc called me fat in the WJC thread because he was too stupid to figure out how rep worked, I've been uninterested in giving him credit for anything.

Bariatric surgery is never lasting so you are still fat!

Seriously folks, this is really a non issue for the CHL. They offer the packages and it is up to the players to take advantage of them.....and many do. The number of Americans choosing the CHL is growing and will continue to do so. One article by a columinist who has been invlovled in a fued with the owners of the Kithener Rangers will not change anything. It is very unlikely that Paul Kelly will have much of an impact either. The NCAA is fighting an uphill battle.

Another high end American born prospect (one of who is currently ranked to go in the top ten in next year's NHL draft) signed yesterday. He joins Saad who also projects to be a top 10 pick. One wonders if Ambrose is far behind?

Link http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/juniorhoc...radyvail070710

Here's another read about the alure the CHL has over California kids

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/juniorhoc...uzzing_the_net

[OHLArenaGuide]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but my account was just activated and I couldn't post until now. I thought I'd shed some light from the other side of the coin, though bear in mind I'm a college hockey fan as well - seen games live at Michigan and Michigan State and I try to watch the Frozen Four every year now that it's on Canadian TV. I'm also going to BGSU for a game this fall.

Regarding the article - Jeff Hicks of the KW Record is well-known in junior hockey circles for being the CHL's most outspoken critic who's on a regular beat. Some of his columns are insightful, some are petty and vindictive, and some play fast and loose with the facts in order to make a point. I'm not really saying anything about this specific column except consider the source: a Hicks column like this is like a Dan Shaughnessy column about curses or a Bill Plaschke column filled with tortured metaphors - boilerplate.

Second, regarding how OHL education packages work - all regular players get one year of university for every one year of playing time. The league minimum package which covers (much cheaper) Canadian tuition, in practice, goes only to the scrubs, the black aces, and the role players. However, those players are also generally the ones who wind up using them. Most OHL players who go immediately to university wind up playing college hockey in the CIS (Canadian Interuniversity Sport), and the OHL money is supplemented with athletic awards and sometimes need-based bursaries. Canadian schools do not offer athletic scholarships.

Finally - players are free to try to negotiate the best education package they can out of their respective teams. There were widespread rumours around the OHL some years ago that the Owen Sound Attack's management were praying Bobby Ryan would make the NHL, since if he got injured and wound up taking the package they'd promised him, it could bankrupt the team.

Hope this was insightful. If there are questions I can answer to the best of my ability.

[Ralph Baer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Most OHL players who go immediately to university wind up playing college hockey in the CIS (Canadian Interuniversity Sport), and the OHL money is supplemented with athletic awards and sometimes need-based bursaries. Canadian schools do not offer athletic scholarships.

What is the difference between an athletic award and an athletic scholarship?

[Puck Swami]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but my account was just activated and I couldn't post until now. I thought I'd shed some light from the other side of the coin, though bear in mind I'm a college hockey fan as well - seen games live at Michigan and Michigan State and I try to watch the Frozen Four every year now that it's on Canadian TV. I'm also going to BGSU for a game this fall.

Regarding the article - Jeff Hicks of the KW Record is well-known in junior hockey circles for being the CHL's most outspoken critic who's on a regular beat. Some of his columns are insightful, some are petty and vindictive, and some play fast and loose with the facts in order to make a point. I'm not really saying anything about this specific column except consider the source: a Hicks column like this is like a Dan Shaughnessy column about curses or a Bill Plaschke column filled with tortured metaphors - boilerplate.

Second, regarding how OHL education packages work - all regular players get one year of university for every one year of playing time. The league minimum package which covers (much cheaper) Canadian tuition, in practice, goes only to the scrubs, the black aces, and the role players. However, those players are also generally the ones who wind up using them. Most OHL players who go immediately to university wind up playing college hockey in the CIS (Canadian Interuniversity Sport), and the OHL money is supplemented with athletic awards and sometimes need-based bursaries. Canadian schools do not offer athletic scholarships.

Finally - players are free to try to negotiate the best education package they can out of their respective teams. There were widespread rumours around the OHL some years ago that the Owen Sound Attack's management were praying Bobby Ryan would make the NHL, since if he got injured and wound up taking the package they'd promised him, it could bankrupt the team.

Hope this was insightful. If there are questions I can answer to the best of my ability.

Hicks may be critical and perhaps vindictive, but what he wrote really did shine some critical factual light on the somewhat shawdowy and misunderstood world of OHL education packages. I think it's important to realize that the OHL is out there taking some business risks by dabbling in education, but they are marketing it to prospects as if it were comparable to the NCAA's educational offer. It's apples and oranges. The OHL is in the hockey business, not the education business, and while some OHL players have taken advantage of the offer, it simply pales in comparison to the NCAA's educational offer. The facts are that only 16% of OHL players ever get a University degree, while 80% of NCAA players graduate.

[OHLArenaGuide]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

What is the difference between an athletic award and an athletic scholarship?

(Small) cash awards can be given for athletic or scholastic achievement, but it can't be a "scholarship" designed to help with tuition. Generally the awards total no more than a few hundred dollars.

Hicks may be critical and perhaps vindictive, but what he wrote really did shine some critical factual light on the somewhat shawdowy and misunderstood world of OHL education packages. I think it's important to realize that the OHL is out there taking some business risks by dabbling in education, but they are marketing it to prospects as if it were comparable to the NCAA's educational offer. It's apples and oranges. The OHL is in the hockey business, not the education business, and while some OHL players have taken advantage of the offer, it simply pales in comparison to the NCAA's educational offer. The facts are that only 16% of OHL players ever get a University degree, while 80% of NCAA players graduate.

All good points, though I will throw out there that not all OHL players would have ever gotten a degree even if they hadn't ever played hockey. Rob Schremp in particular never even finished high school, he dropped out at 16 and got a GED since he knew all along he was never going to be university material. The OHL's numbers will always be lower based upon the fact that they don't look at grades when making recruiting decisions.

[Puck Swami]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

All good points, though I will throw out there that not all OHL players would have ever gotten a degree even if they hadn't ever played hockey. Rob Schremp in particular never even finished high school, he dropped out at 16 and got a GED since he knew all along he was never going to be university material. The OHL's numbers will always be lower based upon the fact that they don't look at grades when making recruiting decisions.

Of course they will. There are always a good chunk of OHL kids that wouldn't be able to hack college work, and that's fine. The OHL is also great for those few first rounder types who are such good hockey players that they will be in the NHL by 19 or 20. Between those two groups, that's probably 40% of the OHL players who are unlikely education candidates anyway.

My focus is on the other 60% of OHL players who probably could do university level work and who are NHL bubble prospects (the 2nd to 7th round and undrafted types) who may or may not make the NHL. The odds are that most of these players won't make it to the NHL. So then what? Some of the smart ones will go the CIS route after age 20 and get their degrees by age 24 or 25 and get on with life, but the vast majority of them will chase the dream in the minors, eventually wash out of playing, and have to start all over again the real world, sometimes with families in tow. That's when a degree really helps, and by then, the OHL can't do much for them, as the OHL package expires 18 months after the player leaves the OHL, or signs and NHL, AHL or European contract. Most of the NCAA players will also eventually wash out of the minors, too, but at least 80% of them will have their degree when they wash out, while most of the OHL washouts are looking at much tougher road ahead...

[NBer]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

I've tried to stay out of this as long as I could but I can't wait any longer to combat some of the complete ignorance that is being shown in this forum. In the minds of most of you there are only 2 levels of hockey..NCAA and CHL, with your thoughts being NCAA being the best because of education and hockey..Very few of you have even mentioned a MAJOR factor in the argument which is a level of hockey in Canada known as the CIS..Canadian Interuniversity Sport. yes up north we do have schools, we're not all lumberjacks and fur traders.

CIS is a high level of hockey where kids can get an education at a Canadian university and continue to pursue their dream of becoming professional hockey players. So let's look at the CIS from a couple of ways.

Hockey: Is it as good as the NCAA, probably not quite overall, the NCAA has more depth but the gap is closing. CIS teams regularly make the trek each season to the US to play exhibition games against NCAA Division 1 teams..and guess what..they often win!! Oh so you'll say its just preseason, give them until Christmas and a NCAA team will win anytime, ok well that did happen. In December 2008 the University of New Brunswick hosted the defending NCAA D1 Champion Boston College Eagles in a 2 games series at UNB. They split the games with UNB winning in a shootout. This is at the midpoint for each team’s season so no excuses available. Top level CIS teams can compete with and beat top level NCAA teams so the argument that CIS hockey is like division 3 is garbage.

School: As I have said earlier, yes we do have post-secondary education in the north. No our top schools might not be quite at the same level internationally academically as Harvard or Yale. But at the end of the day a business degree from the University of Western Ontario is just as good as a business degree from Michigan. If the player plays in the CHL then they are able to use their education package at a Canadian university and play CIS hockey. So at the end of the day if the played in the OHL as a 17,18,19,20 and then started in University as a 20 year old with 4 years of academic scholarships from the OHL then they will graduate from a CIS school at 24 with a comparable degree to an NCAA program.

Choice: The best part about the CIS is that it doesn't force kids to make a life choice at 13-15 years old on what they want to do for the rest of their lives. If they want to be a hockey player they can try to play in the CHL as a 16 or 17 year old. maybe get drafted and maybe make the NHL. If not they can't make the NHL they can use their education package and go play for a CIS school and get a university degree..if they don't want to do that they can move in with their parents and live with them until they are 40..either way no doors are closed and no serious life choices have to be made prematurely at 15 years old.

I think the NCAA is a great league and follow it closely..but so is the Canadian Hockey League..But it really bothers me that the CIS, my favourite league is completely left out of the conversation when in reality it plays a giant part in this argument.

[4four4]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

I've tried to stay out of this as long as I could but I can't wait any longer to combat some of the complete ignorance that is being shown in this forum. In the minds of most of you there are only 2 levels of hockey..NCAA and CHL, with your thoughts being NCAA being the best because of education and hockey..Very few of you have even mentioned a MAJOR factor in the argument which is a level of hockey in Canada known as the CIS..Canadian Interuniversity Sport. yes up north we do have schools, we're not all lumberjacks and fur traders.

CIS is a high level of hockey where kids can get an education at a Canadian university and continue to pursue their dream of becoming professional hockey players. So let's look at the CIS from a couple of ways.

Hockey: Is it as good as the NCAA, probably not quite overall, the NCAA has more depth but the gap is closing. CIS teams regularly make the trek each season to the US to play exhibition games against NCAA Division 1 teams..and guess what..they often win!! Oh so you'll say its just preseason, give them until Christmas and a NCAA team will win anytime, ok well that did happen. In December 2008 the University of New Brunswick hosted the defending NCAA D1 Champion Boston College Eagles in a 2 games series at UNB. They split the games with UNB winning in a shootout. This is at the midpoint for each team’s season so no excuses available. Top level CIS teams can compete with and beat top level NCAA teams so the argument that CIS hockey is like division 3 is garbage.

School: As I have said earlier, yes we do have post-secondary education in the north. No our top schools might not be quite at the same level internationally academically as Harvard or Yale. But at the end of the day a business degree from the University of Western Ontario is just as good as a business degree from Michigan. If the player plays in the CHL then they are able to use their education package at a Canadian university and play CIS hockey. So at the end of the day if the played in the OHL as a 17,18,19,20 and then started in University as a 20 year old with 4 years of academic scholarships from the OHL then they will graduate from a CIS school at 24 with a comparable degree to an NCAA program.

Choice: The best part about the CIS is that it doesn't force kids to make a life choice at 13-15 years old on what they want to do for the rest of their lives. If they want to be a hockey player they can try to play in the CHL as a 16 or 17 year old. maybe get drafted and maybe make the NHL. If not they can't make the NHL they can use their education package and go play for a CIS school and get a university degree..if they don't want to do that they can move in with their parents and live with them until they are 40..either way no doors are closed and no serious life choices have to be made prematurely at 15 years old.

I think the NCAA is a great league and follow it closely..but so is the Canadian Hockey League..But it really bothers me that the CIS, my favourite league is completely left out of the conversation when in reality it plays a giant part in this argument.

Many of us are aware of the CIS. The big difference between the NCAA and CHL or for the most part CIS is everybody on a CHL roster is considered a pro. The NCAA frowns upon pro players playing against so called amatures.

[Patman]

Re: Fascinating story on reality of OHL education packages vs NCAA

yes up north we do have schools, we're not all lumberjacks and fur traders.

To service and support the timber and fur industries... its a distinction without a difference.

CIS is a high level of hockey where kids can get an education at a Canadian university and continue to pursue their dream of becoming professional hockey players. So let's look at the CIS from a couple of ways.

I'm sure advancing to the ECHL and the Quebec Senior League as the main goal.

Top level CIS teams can compete with and beat top level NCAA teams so the argument that CIS hockey is like division 3 is garbage.

Your professionals beat our amateurs... big deal.

School: As I have said earlier, yes we do have post-secondary education in the north. No our top schools might not be quite at the same level internationally academically as Harvard or Yale. But at the end of the day a business degree from the University of Western Ontario is just as good as a business degree from Michigan.

Maybe in Canada.

If the player plays in the CHL then they are able to use their education package at a Canadian university and play CIS hockey.

Already addressed and resolved as a farce.

So at the end of the day if the played in the OHL as a 17,18,19,20 and then started in University as a 20 year old with 4 years of academic scholarships from the OHL then they will graduate from a CIS school at 24 with a comparable degree to an NCAA program.

That 20% figure is wrong?

Choice: The best part about the CIS is that it doesn't force kids to make a life choice at 13-15 years old on what they want to do for the rest of their lives.

No, but the CHL is more than eager to ram that decision down their throats by re-engineering the junior system.

If they want to be a hockey player they can try to play in the CHL as a 16 or 17 year old. maybe get drafted and maybe make the NHL. If not they can't make the NHL they can use their education package and go play for a CIS school and get a university degree..if they don't want to do that they can move in with their parents and live with them until they are 40..either way no doors are closed and no serious life choices have to be made prematurely at 15 years old.

Really, sounds like they are... why does the CHL think its OK to pressure 15 year olds? Is hockey the only way to avoid trapping around Mile 40?

I think the NCAA is a great league and follow it closely..but so is the Canadian Hockey League..But it really bothers me that the CIS, my favourite league is completely left out of the conversation when in reality it plays a giant part in this argument.

Because it has nothing to do with it.