UW-Stout offseason thread

[one_to7]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I'm aware. And of course, concern for the Simon family and the proper punishment of guilty parties trumps any concern for a hockey team, but I think it important to at least recognize that the team stands to be lesser victims in this matter as well. Distraction due to the investigation, the possibility that many of them may have been friends with Bradley Simon, many other scenarios.

I would not at all be surprised to see them decide to voluntarily suspend the team for a season to deal with this mess. I would also not be surprised to see them move forward as a team without the involved individuals. This really is a mess, as well as a tragedy.

While I'm not going to say the whole team was involved in this, when there've been 3 players arrested in this (one for lying to the police), I don't think you can say the hockey team is a "lesser victim". Someone's freaking dead, and you're talking about players on a team that apparently has a gang mentality as the victims?

Norm. When you started off your post with "I have no knowledge of this", you should have taken that as a hint to stop. Instead of posting what's "more likely" to have happened when you've already stated that you had zero knowledge.

Also, what's the point of bolding that no charges have been filed when the line above it says the DA is going to file them on monday?

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

While I'm not going to say the whole team was involved in this,

The above quoted part of your post is exactly my point. The whole team is not involved here. This was 2 team members choosing to consume enough alcohol to impair their judgment enough to kill a young man, and one just plain being an idiot. A large part of the team is completely innocent in this. One player lying to protect a friend, and teammate, does not mean that the entire team has a "gang mentality".

Of course nobody is hurt in this as much as the Simon family, I'm not going to argue that. And first and foremost my condolences go out to the family.

But that said, I think this hockey fan forum would also be an appropriate location to discuss how this will negatively impact the team as a whole, most of whom who bear no guilt in this matter.

All serious matters like this affect a wide array of individuals, many of whom are never discussed. So, with the understanding that nobody is hurt nearly as much as the family of the deceased, should a hockey forum not be an appropriate location discuss how it negatively affects the innocent hockey players?

So yes, the team as a whole is among a long list of lesser victims. No, I cannot tell you any other lesser victims because I'm not involved with the situation. But for a hockey forum, the most pertinent of the lesser victims is the hockey team. I stand by that opinion, disagree with me if you will.



And since apparently you think I'm being insensitive to the Simon Family, I will say it for (I believe) a sixth time on this thread (and I have said it numerous times in other locations)...

My sincerest condolences to all the friends and family of Bradley L. Simon as they struggle to cope with this tragic loss. To die so young is absolutely horrific, and I truly hope that the guilty parties are punished appropriately under laws of the State of Wisconsin.

RIP Bradley L. Simon.

[altazo]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Nate, if you think the two skaters arrested in connection with the death of that young man were the only members of the hockey team drinking at the Log Jam that night, you may be the most naive 19 year old on the planet. You make it sound like the rest of the team was studying and reading each other bed time stories on a Friday night while the two bad seeds prowled town.

I'm not saying anyone else had anything to do with it, but if it were to come to light in the near future that the team has a history of alcohol abuse and or bullying on or around campus, say bye bye to that program and rightfully so.

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Nate, if you think the two skaters arrested in connection with the death of that young man were the only members of the hockey team drinking at the Log Jam that night, you may be the most naive 19 year old on the planet. You make it sound like the rest of the team was studying and reading each other bed time stories on a Friday night while the two bad seeds prowled town.

I'm not saying anyone else had anything to do with it, but if it were to come to light in the near future that the team has a history of alcohol abuse and or bullying on or around campus, say bye bye to that program and rightfully so.

When did I ever say that there were no other hockey players there that night? Don't believe I did. And did I say that everybody on the team besides the three who were arrested is completely innocent in the matter? Again, don't believe I did. You're right, I would have to be terribly naïve to think either of these things.

However, it would be absolutely ridiculous to that the entire team was right there in the confrontation outside the bar? HECK YES IT WOULD! At most, probably a handful of students were there at that moment. I can't imagine an incident of nearly 30 athletes ganging up on one student would go unnoticed, and would be allowed to continue long enough for the one to be killed. So, I stand by my statement that the members of the team who did not make the decision to confront Mr. Simon outside the bar last night, and that includes the coaching staff, are still being negatively impacted by the mistakes of their peers.


And where the hell is this "history of alcohol abuse and bullying" coming from? You have some evidence to back up that suggestion? If not, back off and let these young men try to move on and enjoy their days in college.

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

While I'm not going to say the whole team was involved in this, when there've been 3 players arrested in this (one for lying to the police), I don't think you can say the hockey team is a "lesser victim". Someone's freaking dead, and you're talking about players on a team that apparently has a gang mentality as the victims?

Norm. When you started off your post with "I have no knowledge of this", you should have taken that as a hint to stop. Instead of posting what's "more likely" to have happened when you've already stated that you had zero knowledge.

Also, what's the point of bolding that no charges have been filed when the line above it says the DA is going to file them on monday?

I suppose I should have said "I was not an eye witness" as certainly I had the knowledge as presented from the various sources, as well as my personal experiences attending college at 6 different colleges over 28 semesters, and working in a college campus for about 5 additional years. I did only drink alcohol for less than 4 years of my life, but I did regularly attend parties and go to bars regularly for at least 15 years, though not within the past 10. I do have a great amount of knowledge/reference points on which to base a hypothesis.

What is your basis for stating "players on a team that apparently has a gang mentality"; perhaps you should have stopped before that stereotyping comment.

My point of bolding that no charges have been filed is because some have stated charges were filed. The DA on Monday is going to file a criminal complaint and a judge will decide if there is sufficient probable cause to issue a warrant, until then, they are at most suspects. And I stand by my claim that their family's while not of the same magnitude; are nevertheless victims of the senseless acts, until/unless proven otherwise.

This is as tragic an event as can take place, hyperbole and going beyond our legal system isn't going to make it any better, likely only worse.

[Fritz62]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I know the discussion has gone pretty far and I would like to throw my 2 cents out there as a Stout student. Feel free to disagree but being closer to the situation than most everyone else I feel as though someone from Stout should comment.

First above all else condolences go out to the Simon family, nothing can be harder for a parents than to bury their child.

Secondly, I was not there at the time and cannot say what happened. I know being on campus I have heard many wild allegations, but until witnesses come forward and the case is tried I do not know the facts. Nor do 99.99% of the population, there are a handful of people who actually witnessed the events and are the only ones who truly know what happened.

I would like to reiterate a point that Card's made earlier. It may have been two members of the team, however it was not the entire team. I know many of the players hang out and even go to the bar together, however there are only two people being implicated in this. I know some players and even former players who are being unjustly judged for this which they should not be. The actions of the individuals in question are their own and should be judged. One person on campus told me, "I wish the entire hockey team gets expelled." I can guarantee there are people who were not there at any point and because they are on the hockey team they should also be expelled for the actions of their teammates? That is one of the most uneducated opinions i have ever heard.

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I know the discussion has gone pretty far and I would like to throw my 2 cents out there as a Stout student. Feel free to disagree but being closer to the situation than most everyone else I feel as though someone from Stout should comment.

First above all else condolences go out to the Simon family, nothing can be harder for a parents than to bury their child.

Secondly, I was not there at the time and cannot say what happened. I know being on campus I have heard many wild allegations, but until witnesses come forward and the case is tried I do not know the facts. Nor do 99.99% of the population, there are a handful of people who actually witnessed the events and are the only ones who truly know what happened.

I would like to reiterate a point that Card's made earlier. It may have been two members of the team, however it was not the entire team. I know many of the players hang out and even go to the bar together, however there are only two people being implicated in this. I know some players and even former players who are being unjustly judged for this which they should not be. The actions of the individuals in question are their own and should be judged. One person on campus told me, "I wish the entire hockey team gets expelled." I can guarantee there are people who were not there at any point and because they are on the hockey team they should also be expelled for the actions of their teammates? That is one of the most uneducated opinions i have ever heard.

Well said, thank you.

[altazo]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

When did I ever say that there were no other hockey players there that night? Don't believe I did. And did I say that everybody on the team besides the three who were arrested is completely innocent in the matter? Again, don't believe I did. You're right, I would have to be terribly naïve to think either of these things.

However, it would be absolutely ridiculous to that the entire team was right there in the confrontation outside the bar? HECK YES IT WOULD! At most, probably a handful of students were there at that moment. I can't imagine an incident of nearly 30 athletes ganging up on one student would go unnoticed, and would be allowed to continue long enough for the one to be killed. So, I stand by my statement that the members of the team who did not make the decision to confront Mr. Simon outside the bar last night, and that includes the coaching staff, are still being negatively impacted by the mistakes of their peers.


And where the hell is this "history of alcohol abuse and bullying" coming from? You have some evidence to back up that suggestion? If not, back off and let these young men try to move on and enjoy their days in college.

I said if a history of alcohol abuse and bullying were to come to light, the entire program would be in trouble. Bet on it.

Of course the entire team wasn't there, but I promise more than two of them were. Dude that got killed was on a bicycle, presumably trying to leave the situation. He also went over the bars of his bike. Guess what direction you have to be shoved from to be thrown forward over the bars?

Yeah, it totally sucks for the teammates who weren't out that night, but a chain is only as strong as it's weakest links. That's what it means to be a team. Hopefully it does prove to be an isolated, one of a kind incident and the team is able to pull together and play this season and beyond. But right now that should be the least of anyone's concerns.

[gojackets]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Norwich lacrosse lost part of a season because of a party that resulted in a player falling to his death out of dorm window.

Didn't the Duluth Rugby team basically get disbanded because a player died from hypothermia when he got lost walking home from a party drunk one night?

This sort of reminds me of the UWS brawl outside 3rd base 4-5 years ago. hockey team picks a fight with 3 guys, thinks they can do whatever the hell they want, one of the 3 guys happens to have a knife...player punches out the 3 guys car window as they try to drive away, cutting his wrist in the process....3 guys get arrested for disorderly conduct and assault with a weapon(self defense and didn't cut the guy)...hockey players get off scott free. I'm not saying this kid losing his life is similar to Bickley getting cut, the student dying is much more tragic.

again not familiar with the situation but sometimes it appears that these teams in these college towns think they can get away with anything. I saw it. I was in a car with an incredibly drunk player got pulled over, was let go once the cop realized who it was. At least these guys are being held responsible for their actions.

[Collegeman]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I am sure it is on all campuses in most colleges but in these small towns there is nothing to do so most guys go to the bars. lets face it add booze and there will be trouble. Too bad it resulted in this kids death. Waves of this incident will go thru colleges now and maybe some will wake up and take not and something good can come from this tragedy. really sucks for their families. Sure hope hockey season starts soon so players are too tired and too bored to get into these situations.

[MW4Bucky&SNC]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I believe the "innocent until proven guilty" concept when it comes to the legal side, but it doesn't necessarily need to be used in deciding whether a couple of guys can still play hockey. Freedom from being incarcerated until it is proven beyond reasonable doubt is a basic right. Playing college hockey is not. You have to stick up for your guys, but when there is an incident of this magnitude out there I just wouldn't want this hanging over my team. It already will to a point because of the association, but I'd have to put them on at least what amounts to a leave while this thing gets sorted out. They don't have to be permanently kicked off the team at this point, but they don't have to be an active member right now either. Of course the issue of whether the school will remove them could make it a non-issue anyway, but that's what I would do if it came back on my lap as the hockey coach. I just don't think you can use the time it sometimes takes within the legal system to essentially pretend nothing happened when it comes to a privileged activity like playing college hockey.

[BlueDevilRadio]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

UW-Stout season opener moved to Concordia - http://www.stouthockey.com/2010/09/o...-been-changed/

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I believe the "innocent until proven guilty" concept when it comes to the legal side, but it doesn't necessarily need to be used in deciding whether a couple of guys can still play hockey. Freedom from being incarcerated until it is proven beyond reasonable doubt is a basic right. Playing college hockey is not. You have to stick up for your guys, but when there is an incident of this magnitude out there I just wouldn't want this hanging over my team. It already will to a point because of the association, but I'd have to put them on at least what amounts to a leave while this thing gets sorted out. They don't have to be permanently kicked off the team at this point, but they don't have to be an active member right now either. Of course the issue of whether the school will remove them could make it a non-issue anyway, but that's what I would do if it came back on my lap as the hockey coach. I just don't think you can use the time it sometimes takes within the legal system to essentially pretend nothing happened when it comes to a privileged activity like playing college hockey.

This references a similar, though fortunately non-lethal incident, and also notes like you, that criminal charges differ from college judicial charges.

[pete99race]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/103874599.html
More details about this incident, as reported in the Milw Journal Sentinel this afternoon....

[Hammer]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Uh-oh.....