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CanHockGuy
04-16-2010, 04:50 PM
Who knows more about hockey? Who is in better position to succeed? Just a fun (I think) thread to pass the time through summer. I know it's a women's forum, but everything is welcome. It's summer, almost. You have to admit that a lot of the opinions are border influenced. After the recent results, what do you think?

5 4 Fighting
04-16-2010, 07:07 PM
Are the American's sending a team to the World Championships in Cologne and Mannheim in May?

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/First+named+Team+Canada+roster/2916578/story.html

Hux
04-16-2010, 08:10 PM
Are the American's sending a team to the World Championships in Cologne and Mannheim in May?

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/First+named+Team+Canada+roster/2916578/story.html

Always do. Here is the early roster. (http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Usahockey.aspx?NAV=TU_01_03&id=285450)

NJCPolarBear
04-16-2010, 08:44 PM
:eek: Here's an idea....how about if the American Colleges stop filling their rosters with Canadian Carpetbaggers...for non-revenue sports like women's hockey in particular?

Is there something so wrong with Canadian Universities that the Canadians don't want to attend and play hockey there? [sorta like Canadians want to come to the States for medical care rather than wait for months for the free stuff in Canada?]

Thoughts?

CanHockGuy
04-16-2010, 08:56 PM
:eek: Here's an idea....how about if the American Colleges stop filling their rosters with Canadian Carpetbaggers...for non-revenue sports like women's hockey in particular?

Is there something so wrong with Canadian Universities that the Canadians don't want to attend and play hockey there? [sorta like Canadians want to come to the States for medical care rather than wait for months for the free stuff in Canada?]

Thoughts?

Simple.....Better players. ;)

5 4 Fighting
04-16-2010, 09:37 PM
:eek: Here's an idea....how about if the American Colleges stop filling their rosters with Canadian Carpetbaggers...for non-revenue sports like women's hockey in particular?

Is there something so wrong with Canadian Universities that the Canadians don't want to attend and play hockey there? [sorta like Canadians want to come to the States for medical care rather than wait for months for the free stuff in Canada?]

Thoughts?

Thought # 1 - Can you imagine what kind of hockey you would be watching without Canadians in your game?

Thought # 2 - Under Obama's new health care reform....in 6 months most Americans won't be able to get anywhere near a hospital let alone a Canadian.

SeymoreHockey
04-16-2010, 10:09 PM
:eek: Here's an idea....how about if the American Colleges stop filling their rosters with Canadian Carpetbaggers...for non-revenue sports like women's hockey in particular?

Is there something so wrong with Canadian Universities that the Canadians don't want to attend and play hockey there? [sorta like Canadians want to come to the States for medical care rather than wait for months for the free stuff in Canada?]

Thoughts?

R U serious?? If Canadian universities offered a more comprehensive scholarship program, then you could kiss all Canadians good by...and also, all the quality too. And as far as I'm concerned that would be great.

As for medical care...don't even go there with me...my wife is working in an ER that has a @#$%king TENT set up in the parking lot to handle overloads in the ER. How's that for quality American healthcare... and oh yes, there's a $50 million addition sitting fully equipped and ready to go at the same site ...and the State government will not approve...so patients go sit in a @#$%ing TENT instead...beautiful!!!

I'll take Canadian healthcare ANY TIME!!!

Trillium
04-16-2010, 10:19 PM
Is there something so wrong with Canadian Universities that the Canadians don't want to attend and play hockey there?

Thoughts?

Yup....but I guess I should declare my bias upfront, as I have a daughter stateside.

1) Canadians typically don't worship athletics and athletes, nor fund or support them, anywhere near the extent Americans do. So athletes in Canadian schools often don't even get the same treatment and resources with their team as they were used to in club hockey...night and day difference in attitudes vs US. In US D1 schools, athletes get star treatment. I've seen hockey facilities used by high profile Canadian universities that look like they should have been condemned 20 years ago. I've heard of players also having to traipse back and forth across campus with all their equipment to practice, and having to buy all their own equipment. Many don't even have their own rinks. Many head coaches are volunteers and of dubious quality. And no one but parents attend the games.

2) The quality of hockey (given the above funding inequities) in most CIS schools outside of the powerhouses is far inferior to even that of top minor league club hockey teams. Therefore, among Ontario players, virtually all the top ones go to the US. Those who don't, generally go to Laurier in Ontario , McGill, or the much smaller schools that exist in the Maritimes such as Dalhousie and St. FX....which are all among the top hockey programs as well as being good schools academically.

3) There are many very good Canadian universities academically with strong international reputations. I actually went to one of the best, and I have no complaints about my experience there...but like the health care system I also believe this has deteriorated significantly in the last 25 years. All Canadian universities are publically funded. The upside to this is that they are affordable <$15,000-$20,000 for tuition incl. board, leading to higher overall post-sec education rates among the Canadian population vs the US. (However, I should also add that the program I graduated from is now also among the deregulated ones with tuition+board fees well >$30,000). The downside to being public is that most of the top schools also tend to be very large, comparable in size to the large US public schools, with ridiculously large class sizes and staff:student ratios to correspond, far less individual attention and lacking in additional assistance/support to help balance heavy athletic demands. Similarly, the range of facilities and amenities in Canadian universities are also more comparatively sparce and austere. For perspective, I recall hearing once that the endowment of Harvard alone was far greater than all Canadian universities combined. Availability of on-campus housing at most universities here is atypical for non-froshs, negatively impacting campus life and a cohesive atmosphere.

4) The opportunity for athletic scholarship here is very limited. The maximum allowed in Ontario is $3500, there are very few of these available, and many schools do not offer them at all. So, even for those with less-than-a-full-ride scholarship in the US, American schools can be cheaper to attend despite the lower base tuition costs at home (especially for programs such as business and engineering, medical fields, etc for which fees are non-regulated). Further, these Canadian athletic scholarships are limited only to student athletes who enter with and continue to maintain an A average. At some schools, it is also virtually impossible and sometimes even prohibited to be in these non-regulated programs due to the additional pressures and academic inflexibility to participate on the hockey team anyway.

5) Entrance to Canadian schools is based virtually 100% on your marks. Unlike in the US, your athletic ability or other achievements do not help you get into a more prestigious school or program than you would otherwise qualify for based on grades alone. Ironically, a significant proportion of Canadian players attending Ivy League schools would have had much difficulty in gaining admission in the more selective programs at some of the top Canadian schools such as McGill if they had stayed at home. So going to the US can allow you to "upgrade academically" (....although some girls do also end up in inferior US schools just to be able to play D1 hockey).

6) The emphasis in Canadian universities tend to be pre-professional in nature rather than the Liberal Arts approach more typical in the US. This means students are selecting a major before they ever even apply to attend university, and must apply directly for admission to that specific program rather than to the university as a whole. It can be very difficult and sometimes impossible to transfer into some programs later. Simply choosing a school, and not having to decide on a major until sometime in sophomore year at US schools is very appealing to many indecisive students who have no idea what they want to do when they grow up (which is probably most of them).

7) Further, because of the funding formula, Canadian universities tend to accept significantly more students in particular programs than they ever intend to graduate, with intentionally extremely high rates of attrition prior to graduation. In my niece's first year class of ~ 800 as a Biology major at one of the most highly regarded schools, they were told early in the year that <400 would be continuing after Christmas. The numbers dwindled even further in second year. At the same school, the 350 first years in Kinesiology were cut to a class of <100 for year 2. In comparison, the 80%+ graduation rates at most good US schools are appealing.

OnMAA
04-16-2010, 10:45 PM
Yup....but I guess I should declare my bias upfront, as I have a daughter stateside.

1) Canadians typically don't worship athletics and athletes, nor fund or support them, anywhere near the extent Americans do. So athletes in Canadian schools often don't even get the same treatment and resources with their team as they were used to in club hockey...night and day difference in attitudes vs US. In US D1 schools, athletes get star treatment. I've seen hockey facilities used by high profile Canadian universities that look like they should have been condemned 20 years ago. I've heard of players also having to traipse back and forth across campus with all their equipment to practice, and having to buy all their own equipment. Many don't even have their own rinks. Many head coaches are volunteers and of dubious quality. And no one but parents attend the games.

2) The quality of hockey (given the above funding inequities) in most CIS schools outside of the powerhouses is far inferior to even that of top minor league club hockey teams. Therefore, among Ontario players, virtually all the top ones go to the US. Those who don't, generally go to Laurier in Ontario , McGill, or the much smaller schools that exist in the Maritimes such as Dalhousie and St. FX....which are all among the top hockey programs as well as being good schools academically.

3) There are many very good Canadian universities academically with strong international reputations. I actually went to one of the best, and I have no complaints about my experience there...but like the health care system I also believe this has deteriorated significantly in the last 25 years. All Canadian universities are publicly funded. The upside to this is that they are affordable <$15,000-$20,000 for tuition incl. board, leading to higher overall post-sec education rates among the Canadian population vs the US. (However, I should also add that the program I graduated from is now also among the deregulated ones with tuition+board fees well >$30,000). The downside to being public is that most of the top schools also tend to be very large, comparable in size to the large US public schools, with ridiculously large class sizes and staff:student ratios to correspond, far less individual attention and lacking in additional assistance/support to help balance heavy athletic demands. Similarly, the range of facilities and amenities in Canadian universities are also more comparatively sparse and austere. For perspective, I recall hearing once that the endowment of Harvard alone was far greater than all Canadian universities combined. Availability of on-campus housing at most universities here is atypical for non-frosh's, negatively impacting campus life and a cohesive atmosphere.

4) The opportunity for athletic scholarship here is very limited. The maximum allowed in Ontario is $3500, there are very few of these available, and many schools do not offer them at all. So, even for those with less-than-a-full-ride scholarship in the US, American schools can be cheaper to attend despite the lower base tuition costs at home (especially for programs such as business and engineering, medical fields, etc for which fees are non-regulated). Further, these Canadian athletic scholarships are limited only to student athletes who enter with and continue to maintain an A average. At some schools, it is also virtually impossible and sometimes even prohibited to be in these non-regulated programs due to the additional pressures and academic inflexibility to participate on the hockey team anyway.

5) Entrance to Canadian schools is based virtually 100% on your marks. Unlike in the US, your athletic ability or other achievements do not help you get into a more prestigious school or program than you would otherwise qualify for based on grades alone. Ironically, a significant proportion of Canadian players attending Ivy League schools would have had much difficulty in gaining admission in the more selective programs at some of the top Canadian schools such as McGill if they had stayed at home. So going to the US can allow you to "upgrade academically" (....although some girls do also end up in inferior US schools just to be able to play D1 hockey).

6) The emphasis in Canadian universities tend to be pre-professional in nature rather than the Liberal Arts approach more typical in the US. This means students are selecting a major before they ever even apply to university, and apply to that specific program rather than the university as a whole. It can be very difficult and sometimes impossible to transfer into some programs later. Not having to decide on a major until sometime in sophomore year at US schools is very appealing to many indecisive students who have no idea what they want to do when they grow up (which is probably most of them).

7) Further, because of the funding formula, Canadian universities tend to accept significantly more students in particular programs than they ever intend to graduate, with intentionally extremely high rates of attrition prior to graduation. In my niece's first year class of ~ 800 as a Biology major at one of the most highly regarded schools, they were told early in the year that <400 would be continuing after Christmas. The numbers dwindled even further in second year. At the same school, the 350 first years in Kinesiology were cut to a class of <100 for year 2. In comparison, the 80%+ graduation rates at most good US schools are appealing.

While you bring many good points, your view is very slanted and one sided, putting the Canadian education and sports system in a poor light. Each has their pro's and con's. We have a daughter in each system, going to school and playing varsity, each in a heavy duty program. No time for a lengthy and proper response to your post tight now, but will post a proper response in a day or two to provide a more balanced view. Either way it is a good discussion to have. It's been discussed ad nauseum in the past on the Ontario Forum. Where is "The Prof" when you need him. He had children go to both systems, including one that played at an Ivy.

sillywench
04-16-2010, 10:52 PM
Thought # 1 - Can you imagine what kind of hockey you would be watching without Canadians in your game?


Last week, BC played some rather superior games, doncha think?

Trillium
04-16-2010, 11:16 PM
While you bring up some good points, your view is quite slanted and one sided, putting the Canadian education and sports system in a poor light. Each has their pro's and con's. We have a daughter in each system, going to school and playing varsity, each in a heavy duty program. No time for a lengthy and proper response to your post, but will post in a few days.

Like I said upfront in my post, I admit I am biased...but that bias is also based directly on comparing my daughters' and one nieces' actual real life experiences as well as that of a variety of family friends, in the US system at a variety of private US schools; vs mine, my spouses' and another nieces' experience in Canada over a period of several years...not to mention comparing notes too with other Canadian athletes she previously played with or against. Another caveat is that all of these experiences in both Canadian and US systems is among schools considered quite selective.

Bear in mind too, that the response was in answer to the question, "why do so many Canadian girls play hockey in the US rather than staying at home", rather than a discussion of "what are the pros and cons of staying in Canada rather than going to the US to play hockey". I could certainly also think of quite of few hockey reasons alone to stay home...smaller roster sizes, more playing time, less intense athletic commitment / more academic vs athletic focus, less travel/missed classes, among them etc, etc.

I do agree too that there are many reasons why a significant number of student athletes would actually be far better off staying at Canadian universities rather than going to D1 schools. Unfortunately, I think there are too many girls seduced by the idea of playing D1 hockey and make questionable compromises in academic quality in the process. The quality disparities and poor name recognition among various US universities also tend to be much greater than is the case in Canada.

I would be very interested though to see how/if your perceptions of the two systems change somewhat though too, once you have actually had equivalent opportunity to "live within" both systems for an extended time period to better compare them on an equivalent footing.

Trillium
04-16-2010, 11:23 PM
Last week, BC played some rather superior games, doncha think?

Silly rabbit..er wench..., you are comparing apples and oranges.

Since most top boys in Canada opt to play Major Junior hockey, which prohibits them from playing NCAA later, the proportion of top Canadian talent in the US game on the boys side is not remotely comparable to that in the women's game. Most top male players from Canada not making "the show" out of Junior, go on to later play at Canadian universities, and the level of play there is quite high. That is not at all the case for the women.

D2D
04-17-2010, 12:06 AM
While you bring up some good points, your view is quite slanted and one sided, putting the Canadian education and sports system in a poor light. Each has their pro's and con's. We have a daughter in each system, going to school and playing varsity, each in a heavy duty program. No time for a lengthy and proper response to your post, but will post in a few days.

Looking forward to hearing your rebuttal. I thought Trillium's post was very informative, telling like it is from his/her perspective. I've often wondered why so many great Canadian athletes, especially hockey players, choose to attend American universities rather than their own. Different system, different priorities, mainly set by its government.

While it's great for Canadian players to have options and advance their skills, from a pure American perspective it does seem rather one-sided in that there is not an equal opportunity for our athletes to use their skills to gain acceptance to Canada's best universities while also being able to advance their carriers (in terms of making their National/Olympic team). But as Trillium points out, athletics is not as much of a priority as it is here in the U.S. (which may be a function of mens hockey, which has traditionally relied on its Junior system).

It seems that that for now that's just the way it is. While I would like there to be more "equality" which would allow American players to receive athletic scholarships and play in a competitive Canadian university system, I wouldn't support any type of arbitrary rules imposed in the U.S. that would be designed to change the status quo. As a spectator I do enjoy seeing the highest possible level of hockey being played, even though Canadian players may benefit by taking roster spots that would otherwise go to American girls.

OnMAA
04-17-2010, 09:56 AM
Looking forward to hearing your rebuttal. I thought Trillium's post was very informative, telling like it is from his/her perspective. I've often wondered why so many great Canadian athletes, especially hockey players, choose to attend American universities rather than their own. Different system, different priorities, mainly set by its government.

While it's great for Canadian players to have options and advance their skills, from a pure American perspective it does seem rather one-sided in that there is not an equal opportunity for our athletes to use their skills to gain acceptance to Canada's best universities while also being able to advance their carriers (in terms of making their National/Olympic team). But as Trillium points out, athletics is not as much of a priority as it is here in the U.S. (which may be a function of mens hockey, which has traditionally relied on its Junior system).

It seems that that for now that's just the way it is. While I would like there to be more "equality" which would allow American players to receive athletic scholarships and play in a competitive Canadian university system, I wouldn't support any type of arbitrary rules imposed in the U.S. that would be designed to change the status quo. As a spectator I do enjoy seeing the highest possible level of hockey being played, even though Canadian players may benefit by taking roster spots that would otherwise go to American girls.

The credits you attribute to me should go to Trillium.

OnMAA
04-17-2010, 10:30 AM
Last week, BC played some rather superior games, doncha think?

Last week...:confused: ....Silly You.....BC's season ended in early march :p

D2D
04-17-2010, 10:40 AM
The credits you attribute to me should go to Trillium.

Thanks, just edited my post.

GoBucky36
04-17-2010, 11:00 AM
Id say both countries are pretty equal.

Trillium
04-17-2010, 12:57 PM
Last week...:confused: ....Silly You.....BC's season ended in early march :p

She's referring to the fact that the BC men just won the national championship.

CanHockGuy
04-17-2010, 01:59 PM
Id say both countries are pretty equal.

The gap is certainly tightening. Great for hockey in North America, the others are now forced to keep up. Invest now, have some foresight, and the future will be bright. ;)

NJCPolarBear
04-17-2010, 06:49 PM
My question was really WHY do the US colleges import so many carpetbagger Canadians in the first place? Don't tell me "talent"...there is plenty of talent right here in the US...and even if there are not quite the #'s here...who cares? We're talking about a NON-REVENUE SPORT like women's hockey....what difference does it make?

Many countries have rules that limit "foreigners" from playing there...I know in Japan, they strictly limit the # of Americans who can play pro baseball [maybe 2 per team max]...and I even think the Cannucks limit the number of Americans who can play that stupid brand of Canadian Football [not that any decent player would want to play there anyway].

The point is WHY do we as taxpayers allow our college sports teams to be dominated [most D1 teams are HALF Cannuck, some are more than 50%] by non-citizens who have never paid a dime to create or fund that college...a pure one-way street. While many of our girls are then deprived of the chance to play college hockey. It's crazy.

Stay in Canada and build your own College program.