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SJHovey
03-16-2010, 01:54 PM
Nice analysis of the situation but you may have erred when you stated he left his feet. From still photos of the incident Frattin was moving very fast and neither player appeared to have left their feet until after the initial hit was made.

http://siouxyeahyeahforever.blogspot.com/2010/03/frattin-suspended-for-hit.html

So it appears that Frattin may have been penalized and suspended for a legal hit. What next give out penalties for skating too fast?

lord k did not have a nice analysis of the situation, and you seem to misunderstand it as well.

Matt got a penalty for contact to the head. Nothing about that penalty requires one to leave their feet, at least not unless Joe Finley is the victim.

The league appears to have suspended Frattin due to the severity of the blow, the contact to the head, and possibly the nature of the injury. Whether Frattin did or did not leave his feet is meaningless. The hit warranted the penalty and suspension that has been levied, and no amount of frame by frame analysis of the Frattin Zapruder film will change that. Let it go.

Dirty Bottles
03-16-2010, 01:59 PM
It's only because most of you either have a deep hatred of the Sioux program or you're a moronic St. Cloud fan...

I take offense at this. I have a deep hatred for Sioux AND I'm a moronic St. Cloud Fan! The fact that you're suggesting that it has to be one or the other ****es me off :D :p

bik4u62
03-16-2010, 02:02 PM
Photos don't ever tell the whole story.
No?? Didn't we see that Frattin crushed Wehrs' throat with his knee - while kissing Dude Love good-night?

http://www.grandforksherald.com/media/full/jpg/2010/03/14/315hockey1.jpg

bik4u62
03-16-2010, 02:03 PM
(ooops - 'spectator')

state of hockey
03-16-2010, 02:05 PM
(ooops - 'spectator')

You can go back and edit that. See the "edit" button? ;) :p

The Vicar
03-16-2010, 02:07 PM
I'm gonna make a declaration and then you all can shut up and go back to being retards in the real world.

The hit was dangerous and deserved a suspension. It was NOT as bad as the Marvin hit on Chay and if this was a...UAA player or Michigan Tech player making this hit, there may not have been a suspension and certainly wouldn't be a thread declaring how cheap that player is. It's only because most of you either have a deep hatred of the Sioux program or you're a moronic St. Cloud fan that thinks Aaron Marvin is some sort of saint that this thread even exists in the first place. I wish Wehrs a speedy recovery and hope he can continue his hockey career. I condemn Frattin and hope he doesn't do something this dangerous again. But I'm not going to sit here and say he deserves the same punishment as Marvin. Because he doesn't. Most of you are screaming for his head because you hate the Sioux. And if you say that's not true, take a step back and make sure. There's a few posters on this board that get it, but the rest of you are idiots. Especially St. Cloud fans. This isn't your fight. This is between Minnesota fans and North Dakota fans. Minnesota fans for the most part are actually being reasonable in this. But you, St. Cloud fans, you are being stupid. Grow the *k up you morons. :mad:

That's it. Good day. :mad:

Get help and medication immediately:rolleyes:

Dirty
03-16-2010, 02:16 PM
Get help and medication immediately:rolleyes:

You should let him borrow some of yours.

scsutommyboy
03-16-2010, 02:18 PM
I take offense at this. I have a deep hatred for Sioux AND I'm a moronic St. Cloud Fan! The fact that you're suggesting that it has to be one or the other ****es me off :D :p

Right on!

bik4u62
03-16-2010, 02:20 PM
You can go back and edit that. See the "edit" button? ;) :p
Missed that. It works! Thanks

PCM
03-16-2010, 02:51 PM
I am not quite sure why everyone is hating on Frattin for his comments that he was trying to fire up his team with a big hit? Hitting someone as hard as you can is legal and is something many players try to do.
There are rules limiting how hard you can hit opposing players, where those hits can be delivered and from which direction. So, no, hitting someone as hard as you can is NOT always legal.

If he wouldn't have left his feet there wouldn't have even been a penalty.
Why is everyone is so fixated on this aspect of Frattin's hit? Leaving your feet is one thing officials can consider in assessing a charging penalty, but it isn't all that matters. This is how the rule reads:

RULE 6 / PLAYING RULES HR-61
Charging
SECTION 6. a. A player shall not skate more than two steps or jump into or charge an opponent. Charging is the action of a player, who as a result of distance traveled, checks an opponent violently in any manner from the front or side.
Note: A fair body check is one in which a player checks an opponent who is in possession of the puck, by using the hip or body from the front or diagonally from the front or straight from the side.
As I interpret the rule, the distance traveled and the violence of the check are the key components of charging. I have seen charging called on players who never left their feet. Even if Frattin had stayed on his feet, he still could have received a major penalty for charging or, potentially, boarding.

He left his feet which is illegal and he got the suspension. But hitting someone hard is not a penalty.
That's just not so. If you hit someone hard along the boards, you'll get penalized for boarding. Hit someone hard in the back, and you'll be called for checking from behind. If you go really overboard, you can get a DQ for excessive roughness

RULE 6 / PLAYING RULES HR-63
Excessive Roughness
SECTION 13. A player shall not commit an action not permitted by the rules
that may cause or causes an injury to an opponent, to team personnel or to
a game official.
PENALTY—Disqualification.

nuke
03-16-2010, 03:12 PM
There are rules limiting how hard you can hit opposing players, where those hits can be delivered and from which direction. So, no, hitting someone as hard as you can is NOT always legal.

Why is everyone is so fixated on this aspect of Frattin's hit? Leaving your feet is one thing officials can consider in assessing a charging penalty, but it isn't all that matters. This is how the rule reads:

As I interpret the rule, the distance traveled and the violence of the check are the key components of charging. I have seen charging called on players who never left their feet. Even if Frattin had stayed on his feet, he still could have received a major penalty for charging or, potentially, boarding.

That's just not so. If you hit someone hard along the boards, you'll get penalized for boarding. Hit someone hard in the back, and you'll be called for checking from behind. If you go really overboard, you can get a DQ for excessive roughness

Quit confusing this argument with facts! Sounds to me like Frattin should get banned for life! :eek:

PCM
03-16-2010, 03:16 PM
Nice analysis of the situation but you may have erred when you stated he left his feet. From still photos of the incident Frattin was moving very fast and neither player appeared to have left their feet until after the initial hit was made.
It's strange that none of the frame-by-frame analyses ever seem to make it this far...

http://gra.midco.net/pcmiller/Frattin_hit.jpg

wasmania
03-16-2010, 03:17 PM
That's just not so. If you hit someone hard along the boards, you'll get penalized for boarding. Hit someone hard in the back, and you'll be called for checking from behind. If you go really overboard, you can get a DQ for excessive roughness

to be fair, in these cases you mention it is not hitting someone hard alone that qualifies for a penalty, it is hitting someone hard AND along the boards, from behind etc. I think the spirit of what he and others are getting at here is that it quite possible to hit someone as violently as Frattin did, legally.

lord k
03-16-2010, 03:17 PM
But how do they determine if a hit is too "hard." Frattin did glide before he made contact, but he was skating very fast before he started gliding.

Boarding is usually called when a player is a few feet away from the wall and is slammed into it. Wehrs was right up against the wall.

The contact to the head was what got him the penalty and the DQ. By the standards they have set throughout the season he ended up with the right punishment.

ScoobyDoo
03-16-2010, 03:19 PM
to be fair, in these cases you mention it is not hitting someone hard alone that qualifies for a penalty, it is hitting someone hard AND along the boards, from behind etc. I think the spirit of what he and others are getting at here is that it quite possible to hit someone as violently as Frattin did, legally.

That would be a pretty rare feat. Frattin skated a long way before he got to Wehrs, that just doesn't happen very often.

wasmania
03-16-2010, 03:23 PM
It's strange that none of the frame-by-frame analyses ever seem to make it this far...

http://gra.midco.net/pcmiller/Frattin_hit.jpg

Is it fair is to imply that this was the point of contact, when a previous frame shows Frattin and Wehrs sandwiched together with Frattins feet on the ice. Are you saying that after they hit, Frattin "jumped him" :rolleyes:

I am not saying he is innocent of a bad hit by any means, but I can't quite grasp why you, writer-guy, are deciding to stoop to subterfuge? I thought that was for the emotional fanbases, not the journalists.

PCM
03-16-2010, 03:26 PM
I think the spirit of what he and others are getting at here is that it quite possible to hit someone as violently as Frattin did, legally.
No, that is absolutely not true. The whole point of having a rule against charging is to prevent players from hitting each other as hard as possible.

Husky4Life
03-16-2010, 03:46 PM
The 100 gopher fans, the 75 Denver fans, the 300 UMD fans, the 300 SCSU fans, and the 350 drunk Wisconsin fans will all be cheering for the bulldogs! So take that Susie.

Dirty
03-16-2010, 03:49 PM
The 100 gopher fans, the 75 Denver fans, the 300 UMD fans, the 300 SCSU fans, and the 350 drunk Wisconsin fans will all be cheering for the bulldogs! So take that Susie.

So 10,000 Sioux fans against 1500 random idiots. Sounds intimidating.

PCM
03-16-2010, 03:50 PM
Is it fair is to imply that this was the point of contact, when a previous frame shows Frattin and Wehrs sandwiched together with Frattins feet on the ice. Are you saying that after they hit, Frattin "jumped him" :rolleyes:
Please note that in the charging rule, there is nothing which specifies a point at which jumping into the opposing player is permitted. It just says you can't do it. Frattin left his feet in the process of delivering the hit. It's clear from the video that he did it by getting low and launching himself upwards to maximize the impact.

How does a person jump? By getting low and using the legs to propel the body upward. That's what Frattin did. It's what caused him to leave his feet while delivering the hit. Under the charging rule, the point at which he did it is irrelevant.

I am not saying he is innocent of a bad hit by any means, but I can't quite grasp why you, writer-guy, are deciding to stoop to subterfuge?
In what way am I stooping to subterfuge? :confused:

I thought that was for the emotional fanbases, not the journalists.
Who's emotional? I can read and interpret the rules. I can also watch a video and draw my own conclusions. I concluded that the hit was illegal because it violates the rules. It was dangerous because it resulted in a head injury. And under the rules, the WCHA is justified in applying supplemental discipline, which is the best way of sending the message that the league won't tolerate illegal, dangerous hits. I have always been against illegal, dangerous hits, no matter which team engages in them.