PDA

View Full Version : Refs absent without leave



Pages : [1] 2

passthepuck
02-20-2010, 02:47 PM
Saw some games up close and personal. D2 and 3 are the only leagues anywhere I am aware of that call the old style that the NHL and all other leagues moved away from. It was a crime to watch interference, obstruction and hooking totally ignored. It absolutely ruined the games and shut down any offensive talent on the ice. That, in itself, was absolutely unacceptable and turned the games into a joke, but it was also the inconsistencies that made the referees look very inadequate to the task. I seriously, knowing what I now know, would not waste a dime sending a kid to play in such a poorly officiated league. Quite literally it was like watching poorly trained and totally unmonitored autocratic referees ruin the potential that the league might otherwise have. The apologies, unsolicited, by league officials in no way makes up for the travesty of the reffing I have viewed. How, in all conscience, can the expense of building facilities, recruiting and forming teams, the expense of busses, and all other considerations be hijacked in this way. How can a league ignore the entire direction that hockey has taken over the past 5 years to the detriment of the league, players,coaches and multi-thousand dollar paying parents and the poor hoodwinked fans. To boot the refs are recalcitrant, absolutely unwilling to listen or to change. Each of them acts like they are president of the league itself and will not listen to a living soul. Believe me the reffing is so below sub-standard compared to elsewhere, that it is best described as neanderthal and subterranean.

Are there any plans to bring the league reffing out of the dark ages, because as it stands, I seriously cannot, in all conscience, recommend this league to anyone, regardless of how limited their talent might be. No matter what small amount of talent, it will surely be wasted as things stand. Something definitely needs to be done, like 5 years ago.

aerogroup2
02-21-2010, 09:38 AM
Saw some games up close and personal. D2 and 3 are the only leagues anywhere I am aware of that call the old style that the NHL and all other leagues moved away from. It was a crime to watch interference, obstruction and hooking totally ignored. It absolutely ruined the games and shut down any offensive talent on the ice. That, in itself, was absolutely unacceptable and turned the games into a joke, but it was also the inconsistencies that made the referees look very inadequate to the task. I seriously, knowing what I now know, would not waste a dime sending a kid to play in such a poorly officiated league. Quite literally it was like watching poorly trained and totally unmonitored autocratic referees ruin the potential that the league might otherwise have. The apologies, unsolicited, by league officials in no way makes up for the travesty of the reffing I have viewed. How, in all conscience, can the expense of building facilities, recruiting and forming teams, the expense of busses, and all other considerations be hijacked in this way. How can a league ignore the entire direction that hockey has taken over the past 5 years to the detriment of the league, players,coaches and multi-thousand dollar paying parents and the poor hoodwinked fans. To boot the refs are recalcitrant, absolutely unwilling to listen or to change. Each of them acts like they are president of the league itself and will not listen to a living soul. Believe me the reffing is so below sub-standard compared to elsewhere, that it is best described as neanderthal and subterranean.

Are there any plans to bring the league reffing out of the dark ages, because as it stands, I seriously cannot, in all conscience, recommend this league to anyone, regardless of how limited their talent might be. No matter what small amount of talent, it will surely be wasted as things stand. Something definitely needs to be done, like 5 years ago.

Not sure which conference games you saw.... In my team's conference[Plattsburgh, SUNYAC], it appears that ECAC provides the officials."The ECAC assigns officials for the ECAC Menís East Ice Hockey League, ECAC Menís West Ice Hockey League, ECAC Northeast Ice Hockey League, ECAC Womenís East Ice Hockey League, ECAC Womenís West Ice Hockey League, NESCAC, the Northeast-10 Conference, and the SUNYAC" www.ecac.org

There seems to be a system in place within ECAC for coaches and ADs to critique officials after each game. "Rating Officials:Each athletic director and head coach are requested to rate each official on the ECAC online system after each game." www.ecac.org/officiating/information/policies_procedures/2007-08/index

My limited research online also showed that many of the ECAC refs officiate both D-3 and D1 games, so I don't believe they are calling one division differently than the other. I fully agree that the "clutch and grab" games should not be allowed to happen and can only hope that poor reffing is being reported to the governing bodies. Occasionally, the refs even get suspended... http://www.uscho.com/news/college-hockey/id,915/WCHAOfficialsSuspended

mazile
02-21-2010, 10:29 AM
Saw some games up close and personal. D2 and 3 are the only leagues anywhere I am aware of that call the old style that the NHL and all other leagues moved away from. It was a crime to watch interference, obstruction and hooking totally ignored. It absolutely ruined the games and shut down any offensive talent on the ice. That, in itself, was absolutely unacceptable and turned the games into a joke, but it was also the inconsistencies that made the referees look very inadequate to the task. I seriously, knowing what I now know, would not waste a dime sending a kid to play in such a poorly officiated league. Quite literally it was like watching poorly trained and totally unmonitored autocratic referees ruin the potential that the league might otherwise have. The apologies, unsolicited, by league officials in no way makes up for the travesty of the reffing I have viewed. How, in all conscience, can the expense of building facilities, recruiting and forming teams, the expense of busses, and all other considerations be hijacked in this way. How can a league ignore the entire direction that hockey has taken over the past 5 years to the detriment of the league, players,coaches and multi-thousand dollar paying parents and the poor hoodwinked fans. To boot the refs are recalcitrant, absolutely unwilling to listen or to change. Each of them acts like they are president of the league itself and will not listen to a living soul. Believe me the reffing is so below sub-standard compared to elsewhere, that it is best described as neanderthal and subterranean.

Are there any plans to bring the league reffing out of the dark ages, because as it stands, I seriously cannot, in all conscience, recommend this league to anyone, regardless of how limited their talent might be. No matter what small amount of talent, it will surely be wasted as things stand. Something definitely needs to be done, like 5 years ago.

You must be watching a different league than I am. The games I watch are loaded with phantom hooks, trips and ridiculous interference calls. Clean hard hits are often an excuse to call boarding and charging.
In my opinion marginal calls ruin a lot more games than this so-called "clutching and grabbing". There's no lack of offense in D3 hockey, but the physical element of the game has been curtailed.

passthepuck
02-21-2010, 12:01 PM
Thanks to both posters. I would not post a comment like this unless I felt there was a real problem. I understand that in some leagues there are only a few available refs or at least only a few that they use.

I don't understand how on a one on one, for instance, when there is an opposition player hooking in beyond a 180 degree arc slowing and eventually tripping the offensive player, on a scoring drive, that the ref makes no call. Then they call, as the second poster suggested, marginal and immaterial stuff away from the play and situations that have nothing to do with scoring drives. It really boggles the mind.

What is the point of calling games in an outdated fashion inconsistent with all recent rule changes. Surely if these refs are being properly monitored there should have been some constructive change by now. Yet it is late in the season and the same nonsense is going on. Somebody is asleep at the switch or there is no real accountability.

I confirmed what I saw in numerous webcasts with attendance at a few games and really could not quite believe what I was seeing, even in person. It looks looks like a broken system operating by its own arbitrary, outmoded and outdated standards. My issue is that it compromises legitimate talent and slows the game down, looking more like a football or a rugby game than the game that they are supposed to be playing.

I am pleased to hear that there is a reporting and a momitoring system, yet that fact only increases an incredulity now fueled by a desire to know how such blatant non-calls coupled with trivial calls at other times can set the standard for reffing in the ECAC East.

Tackling a player who is carrying the puck as he approaches the net is apparently a non-call. Setting moving picks is also a non-call. Clutching and grabbing, you guessed it. Pinning an offensive player against the boards for an extended time period is also a non-call. All of the refs watch the play, while in a 3 ref system they are supposed to have different roles. With all due respect, if they want to watch the game like a spectator they ought to be spectating, not refereeing.

At the very least they should review the roles of the refs in a 3 man system. Re-establish the definitions of the major calls and have some means of rewarding/sanctioning refs that is productive, beneficial and which leads to better refereeing as an outcome. It is really frustrating to watch the game misinterpreted and miscalled. It really hamstrings the legitimate efforts of talented players and allows lesser players to thrive in such a miscalled game.

norm1909
02-21-2010, 12:18 PM
...
I confirmed what I saw in numerous webcasts with attendance at a few games ...

... All of the refs watch the play, while in a 3 ref system they are supposed to have different roles. With all due respect, if they want to watch the game like a spectator they ought to be spectating, not refereeing.

... It is really frustrating to watch the game misinterpreted and miscalled....

Since 1983 as a SUNY Plattsburgh, I've been regularly watching DIII hockey (mostly at Plattsburgh & Potsdam in the mid-late 1990's) and there are always questionable calls. Sometimes, it certainly has a significant effect, such as changing momentum, composure, etc.

Is it bad enough to feel disgusted with the league? NO

Note that most webcast, you are going to hear a biased opinion - it is their job, not that they are always wrong, but nearly always biased.

Is it really frustrating to watch a game misinterpreted and miscalled? YES

But grossly misinterpreted and miscalled? Rarely happens.

ColdInRomney
02-21-2010, 12:25 PM
You must be watching a different league than I am. The games I watch are loaded with phantom hooks, trips and ridiculous interference calls. Clean hard hits are often an excuse to call boarding and charging.
In my opinion marginal calls ruin a lot more games than this so-called "clutching and grabbing". There's no lack of offense in D3 hockey, but the physical element of the game has been curtailed.


+1

joeyc3402
02-21-2010, 03:36 PM
I'd also like to point out that for the '04-'05 season, the NCAA's added "points of emphasis" in their official video focused almost entirely on the clutching, grabbing, and interference that passthepuck is saying is prevalent.

In other words, the NCAA was taking care of this before the NHL and other leagues ever did.

Bald Tire
02-21-2010, 03:39 PM
It seems over the past decade, reffing quality has gone down hill. There is no consistency from game to game. Some might argue from team to team. It seems in every game I watch, there are phantom calls that make you wonder why that was called. Then at a different instance in the same game a blatant penalty will go uncalled. How does this happen?

Another thing that makes me scratch my head is when you see a play develop that you feel a penalty should be called, but is not. Then a few minutes later the other teams make a seemingly identical play and then that one gets called. Where is the consistency?

Is it enough to make me say a whole league is out of order? No. Is it enough to make me thing there needs to be some changes made? Heck yes! Basic eye sight tests (without glasses or contacts) should be mandatory every year for starters....

norm1909
02-21-2010, 03:57 PM
It seems over the past decade, reffing quality has gone down hill.....

My experience, the opposite has happened.


There is no consistency from game to game. Some might argue from team to team.

You are more likely to see consistancy among the same referees, but different referees, like all humans, have different "pet peeves" and from my experience "individually" they DO tend to be consistant - some might call more "Contact to the head" others more "hooking, others "Tripping", etc, but while they are all "Referees", they are also all "individuals".


It seems in every game I watch, there are phantom calls that make you wonder why that was called Then at a different instance in the same game a blatant penalty will go uncalled. How does this happen? Another thing that makes me scratch my head is when you see a play develop that you feel a penalty should be called, but is not. Then a few minutes later the other teams make a seemingly identical play and then that one gets called. Where is the consistency?....

Some they see, some they don't - there is a much better wide angle - i.e. ability to "a play develop" from the stands than on the ice. It happens, and particularly when you see a "missed call", it becomes "top of mind" for you and you are more likely to notice it should it happen again, especially if it wasn't called on your teams opponent, but was on them.


Is it enough to make me say a whole league is out of order? No. Is it enough to make me thing there needs to be some changes made? Heck yes! Basic eye sight tests (without glasses or contacts) should be mandatory every year for starters....

I agree, there is always room for improvement, and the NCAA, while guilty of much "administrative misconduct and/or incompetence", does IMO, appear to be making a sincere effort to improve this very important aspect of the game.

davinchi
02-21-2010, 10:10 PM
I think what we are seeing is a transitional phase in the philosophy of the game. First of all, hockey is very resistant to change until the past 5-7 years. For a long time it was players that policed themselves with "the code" amongst fighters in the NHL. As in other sports there is a trickle down effect which reaches us in D3 hockey. Now (and finally) they are trying to call the game as the rules intended. The clutching and grabbing were always illegal tactics but tolerated because the problem was ignored, thus allowed to escalate. When it finally reached an impasse something had to be done. Refs used to be encouraged to develop their own styles and some were noted for allowing the players to play while others kept a tighter grip on things. Why, I do not understand because why have the rules if they are just ignored by the players and the refs. Refs were afraid to call penalties late in games out of fear that their call would impact the outcome. Now with the understanding that a penalty is a penalty we have to be patient as the game will lose its flow because everyone from players to coaches to officials have to learn how to follow the rules that were always ignored. For those that think they are trying to take the physicallity out of hockey are wrongly evaluating the situation because with bigger, stronger, faster players it has become a more dangerous game. Refs have to watch out for the safety of the players and are encouraged to make those calls if they feel it will curb dangerous hits. Are there some mistakes being made and are some of them gregarious? Yes...but coaches make errors in judgement as do the players...refs (at least in theory) are humans too and suseptible to making errors as anyone would. What there needs to be IMHO is more education and more of a direction from the national level so that there is a vision in D3 hockey as to how the games are going to be called. Coaches used to tell players not to retaliate because that is the calls the refs make...therein lies the problem as the initial call needs to be made since that was the catalyst of the rules being compromised.

NUProf
02-22-2010, 04:38 AM
Refs were afraid to call penalties late in games out of fear that their call would impact the outcome.

Which was a philosophy that I've always thought of as bogus, because letting the call go also impacts the outcome by giving the offending team an unfair advantage.



refs (at least in theory) are humans too and suseptible to making errors as anyone would. What there needs to be IMHO is more education and more of a direction from the national level so that there is a vision in D3 hockey as to how the games are going to be called.

It going to take a while for some of the real clunkers of refs to get their head around things. St. Louis and Tisi are two examples of refs who totally don't get it and couldn't call a consistent game if they tried.

It is going to take some supervision, education, and filtering out those who don't get it before things settle down.

WillieC
02-22-2010, 10:41 AM
...and none of that will happen until there is an abundance of officials available for games....anyone??

jerrynu26
02-22-2010, 10:44 AM
...and none of that will happen until there is an abundance of officials available for games....anyone??

That is an area that really needs expansion, and right now, you couldn't get rid of any referees without severely impacting the games on schedules.

NUProf
02-22-2010, 11:04 AM
...and none of that will happen until there is an abundance of officials available for games....anyone??

That's the issue, in a nutshell of course. Not me - I can just barely skate - it's one reason why I appreciate the game so much. I can't imagine doing all of the things the players have to do beyond skating

Had Enough
02-27-2010, 09:14 AM
So when you are at the game tonight, keep an eye on the refs. Icing calls: correct/consistent? Clutch and grab: are both hands on the stick or is one hand free grabbing or holding another player? Mistake calls: if refs confer and change a call is the face off at center ice like it's supposed to be? Interference: correct and consistent for both teams? Are they in position to make the right call? Are they consistently in the way and interfering with the flow of the game? I could go on and on. Also the quality distribution of refs may be better tonight for league playoffs. This would be a good subject to research: during the regular season which crew gets a Norwich/Plattsburgh game vs. a Worcester St/Framingham St. game? I completely agree with passthepuck, though perhaps not as vehemently. Though I also agree with the last 3 posters: Until a new group of talented and committed officials appear we (players and fans) are stuck with the same old crap.

Birdwatcher
02-27-2010, 11:00 AM
So when you are at the game tonight, keep an eye on the refs. Icing calls: correct/consistent? Clutch and grab: are both hands on the stick or is one hand free grabbing or holding another player? Mistake calls: if refs confer and change a call is the face off at center ice like it's supposed to be? Interference: correct and consistent for both teams? Are they in position to make the right call? Are they consistently in the way and interfering with the flow of the game? I could go on and on. Also the quality distribution of refs may be better tonight for league playoffs. This would be a good subject to research: during the regular season which crew gets a Norwich/Plattsburgh game vs. a Worcester St/Framingham St. game? I completely agree with passthepuck, though perhaps not as vehemently. Though I also agree with the last 3 posters: Until a new group of talented and committed officials appear we (players and fans) are stuck with the same old crap.

Well at least we have 3 refs. Remember in the early years of D3 hockey there were only 2 refs per game until NCAA playoff time!

D3 Hockey is the Best
02-27-2010, 11:05 AM
There seems to be a system in place within ECAC for coaches and ADs to critique officials after each game. "Rating Officials:Each athletic director and head coach are requested to rate each official on the ECAC online system after each game." www.ecac.org/officiating/information/policies_procedures/2007-08/index

I have heard that in the ECAC, some of the league officials who receive the coaches' ratings of refs have shared them with the refs. So the coaches who have tried to be objective are penalized with bogus calls or non-calls when the negatively critiqued ref next officiates for that team. As a result, other coaches are holding back on being objective.

If this is true, then the whole ECAC system needs changing from the top down.

Had Enough
02-27-2010, 11:25 AM
Well at least we have 3 refs. Remember in the early years of D3 hockey there were only 2 refs per game until NCAA playoff time!

Others who have seen the same games as I, and have discussed how poorly the officials performed have speculated that one problem at Division III occurred when D-I went to 4 on-ice officials. Perhaps the best from D-III were moved up to D-I games which left D-III with the rest...

Hammer
02-27-2010, 11:59 AM
Over the past three seasons at Adrian, we've had CCHA referees work our games. For those of you that do not follow D-1 hockey, it's the league with Michigan, Michigan State, Ferris, Western Michigan, Notre Dame, etc. It's almost like they treat it as a punishment or a demotion and work the game accordingly. Either that or they're sticking orange bands on the linesmen and away they go. There have been a couple of instances where a crew has screwed up a series in the CCHA, and they've just happened to draw the Adrian series the very next weekend, and it has showed in their performance on the ice. They don't want to be there, they don't give a damm, and at times there is a lack of professionalism. Funny how that works...

OTOH, the crew that worked both Adrian games in the MCHA tournament last year, a true Division III crew that I had not seen once during the season, did an outstanding job from what I saw. They had control of the games, made calls accordingly, and they still were able to let the players play. I wish I could say the same about the quality of officiating

Had Enough
03-01-2010, 05:53 PM
Well the officiating in the game I saw this weekend rated a "not bad". Definately some inconsistency in the calls (why is one obvious clutch and grab called and another ignored?) but they were equally inconsistent both ways. I would expect better officiating this time of year because with fewer games being played each weekend, hopefully the better crews are in action while the weaker ones are done.....hopefully!