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The Real Georgia Peach
02-04-2010, 07:54 PM
Now that I've got your attention, this thread is to talk about the possible move to DI for the Cadets IF the NESCAC interlock should go away. What are the hurdles, where would they play, would RIT become their biggest rival, can they be competitive???

Have at it.:D

CROSBYNU63
02-04-2010, 08:02 PM
Well first off I do not see us going DI, I do see the NESCAC breaking off the interlock....If Norwich did go DI it would be as a member of the Atlantic Hockey Conf....yes they would become competitive in a short time and I believe Army would become the big rival.

hockey247
02-04-2010, 09:19 PM
I don't think it would happen. But if they did how about a UVM, they would be the nearst team to Norwich.

DOes anyone see any of the D2/D3 schools jumping up with the new CollegeHockeyInc.?

play by play
02-04-2010, 09:36 PM
Peach..........Are you forgetting that the whole athletic department would have to go DI ? Seeing my alma mater go through it in the early 90's (non-hockey school) was painful. Some sports had to be dropped. All the teams suffered through the transition D3-D2-D1.Money is a huge issue. If you are an alum, prepare to open your pocketbook to write some checks and by the way....they will never stop asking for the money and they will be persistent.

Enjoy what you got.....it is a good thing

I agree with Crosby that they would be competitive in Atlantic Hockey in short order...........then again I could think of 6-8 D3 programs that could pull that off in Atlantic hockey ( that's because it is not a challenge to be a bottom feeder in D1)

Henry
02-04-2010, 10:05 PM
I don't know why they don't resurrect D 2 Norwich, Middlebury, Plattsburgh Oswego etc would make a very strong D 2 circuit.

The Real Georgia Peach
02-04-2010, 10:13 PM
The Alumni office already knows where I live...and I get requests all the time. What sports do we have to be concerned about? Div I soccer isn't that big a jump. Football? maybe Basketball? sure, but if scholarships are available then maybe not such a bad deal. Will the Alumni, Administration , Community support the move up? Only time will tell. The big question is where would Norwich fit? ECAC?

PrezdeJohnson09
02-04-2010, 10:49 PM
I don't know why they don't resurrect D 2 Norwich, Middlebury, Plattsburgh Oswego etc would make a very strong D 2 circuit.

There is no point in D-II. There aren't enough hockey teams in the country to begin with. Why cut it up even more?

It's either full fledge D-I or D-III.

I can't comment on how well Norwich and Middlebury could make the transition but I can tell you that Oswego's athletics teams outside of the hockey team are below average almost across the board.

The athletic program would need a drastic overhaul if they wanted to move the entire school up to D-I status. They'd only cripple themselves if they decided to just move the hockey team(s) up because they wouldn't be able to compete without athletic scholarships.

Why go up to D-I and be a bottom tier team when you can be a D-III powerhouse and try and win a few more championships, because Oswego honestly hasn't won all that much for how long the program has been around. They've been the perennial bridesmaid to Plattsburgh for ages.

norm1909
02-04-2010, 10:52 PM
Well first off I do not see us going DI, I do see the NESCAC breaking off the interlock....If Norwich did go DI it would be as a member of the Atlantic Hockey Conf....yes they would become competitive in a short time and I believe Army would become the big rival.

This is Army hockey (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100204/ap_on_re_as/as_afghan_desert_hockey)! :eek: :cool:

Old Rook NU'66
02-04-2010, 11:14 PM
Ten years ago, I asked a classmate and former NU player close to the Cadet hockey program (as a fund raiser for "the Berg") about NU going up to D1—pointing out that schools like St. Lawrence, RPI, and a handful of others had D1 hockey programs but continued to compete at the D3 level in other sports. :confused:

He explained that as a D1 school Norwich would face a whole set of recruiting challenges starting with an expectation of a war chest of full scholarship dollars to make that happen if the school was to be competitive at that level. If that is true, does NU have those kinds of dollars to fund scholarships? And how about travel? Take a look at where the schools in the Atlantic Conference are located and imagine the implications on team travel costs. As a small private university the NU is fairly well endowed for its size—but I am not sure that endowment was put in place to fund D1 hockey in lieu of other priorities—like education. :o

As someone has already pointed out, if the Cadets want DI hockey all other sports must move up as well. So is the school is prepared for the expenses associated with that as well for all its D1 teams—not just hockey? And believe me it is more than football, soccer or basketball but six other men’s sports as well. And would a D1 move also implicate the ten Norwich women’s intercollegiate sports programs?:rolleyes:

And lets not forget that NU is primarily a school rooted in New England and if NU were to move into D1 to join the Atlantic Conference—would the folks running the NU hockey program also understand that for most New England alumni and fans (outside of the Central Vermont area who attend home games) there are only two of the AC teams (Holy Cross and Bentley) in the immediate Boston area where we can actually see "our heroes" play. This year, I will see NU play seven road games all within a 90 minute drive while in the AC I might see one a year. And while sad at the prospect of not seeing the Cadets here in Maine against Colby and Bowdoin:( —as it is, we will still see them as USM and UNE. :)

And finally, what is in it for Norwich--its students, its alumni, friends or fans of NU hockey?:confused: Does anyone see bragging rights down the road connected with such a move? :confused: Sure I recall my days at Norwich before D1 and D3 and we saw team like Dartmouth, UNH, UVM, Northeastern, and other big name schools square off against the Cadets. But I am not sure we can recapture those days.

What’s more I just don’t get the economics of a D1 program at NU other than more expense and questionable returns. I might be convinced otherwise but someone needs to explain this a little more beyond the idea than it sounds like a great idea for NU hockey because NESCAC doesn’t want an interlocking schedule anymore. Tell me how this helps the entire university community?:(

Norwich Third Bencher
02-04-2010, 11:26 PM
Sorry, I originally posted this in the wrong string.

Just wondering here; I know that in the past Norwich used to play UVM and Dartmouth and probably other (now) D1 schools. Has a possible all-Vermont tournament ever been discussed? Maybe the 3 D3 schools (NU, Midd and Castleton) plus alternating UVM and St Mike's? That could be really fun, I think. It might take up some of the slack if the interlock ever did get ... uh, unlocked. It would be a natural for a Tuesday night game like the St Mike's and Plattsburgh games are now.

Any support for this one? :cool:

Does anyone think that the current UVM, with its on-again, off-again troubles would just wipe up the ice with either NU or Midd? I certainly don't think so and I really LIKE UVM. I'd have season's tickets to both UVM and Norwich if they were available - even though I'd still use my Wick tix on nights when both were playing.

HungryHungryHuskies
02-04-2010, 11:33 PM
Now that I've got your attention, this thread is to talk about the possible move to DI for the Cadets IF the NESCAC interlock should go away. What are the hurdles, where would they play, would RIT become their biggest rival, can they be competitive???

Have at it.:D

I saw this thread on the front page of the forums and it caught my attention, mainly because I'm all for the expansion of D1 hockey.

Some people have pointed out that an entire sports program would have to go D1 - is this really the case? I know that Merrimack and perhaps Umass Lowell are Division 1 in Hockey East, but have D2 or D3 sports otherwise. Same can be said for a number of other schools in D1 hockey. Is that no longer the case? I am unfamiliar with this process.

Also, I see some people have been saying Atlantic Hockey would be a good fit, but I honestly don't see that conference expanding anymore than it already has. They accepted Robert Morris and Niagara into their conference after the CHA announced an end to their conference, and that means they're at 12 teams. I sincerely doubt Hockey East will ever expand past 10 teams as that would mean a restructuring of scheduling, and given their already small out of conference schedule, it would be a poor move. The WCHA just filled up to 12 with the addition of Bemidji State and UNO, ECAC seems set on 12, and the CCHA is now the only conference with a void, due to Nebraska-Omaha's departure - they voted against accepting Alabama-Huntsville, the lone team without a home conference after the CHA's run comes to an end.

Also, from what I understand (I may have some bad info), Atlantic Hockey is the only conference with a cap on scholarships that may be given to hockey players... I want to say it's something like 16?? I can't imagine that this doesn't result in a competitive disadvantage in recruiting.

As much as I want to see the top DIII teams make a splash in DI (RIT has done very well for themselves), I don't think the CURRENT state of DI hockey would be very accommodating. The creation of College Hockey Inc. could lead to great things, but only time will tell.

Good luck to Norwich the rest of the way this season.

CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
02-05-2010, 01:27 AM
My understanding was that shortly before RIT joined DI in Hockey, DIII adopted legislation that meant DIII schools had to adhere to DIII rules, particularly as it pertains to financial aid, across the board and regardless of the division in which a particular team plays. Thus, no scholarships for RIT Hockey or Hobart Lacrosse.

But the DIII schools with DI teams offer scholarships before thst legislation was passed were allowed to continue the aid they were offering at the time (ie. the number of scholarships couldn't increase). St. Lawrence, Clarkson, RPI, and Colorado College Ice Hockey, and Johns Hopkins Lacrosse were the schools in that category. Union would have been in that category if they'd offered any scholarships at the time.

I've spent a few hours now reading through NCAA DI legislative Proposals, minutes and agendas of Board of Directors, Legislative Council, and Leadership Council meetings. All I've been able to find is that, in October 2009 the Leadership Council (a purely advisory body) supported some new proposals on DI membership including: No new DII or DIII single-sport playups - current Playups would continue, and a requirement that all institutions be active DII members for 5 years before beginning reclassification to DI, resulting in a 13 year reclassification process (3 provisional DII + 5 active DII + 5 provisional DI) :eek: However, the subsequent Board of Directors meeting, in January 2010, simply said that the Leadership Council will continue to discuss these proposals before formally submitting them to legislative consideration for the 2010-2011 legislative cycle. So it's not set in stone yet that playups are out. If for some reason this legislative is delayed until the 2011-2012 legislative cycle (not an unreasonable thought), it would be possible for the Cadets to slip into the elevator before the door closes. ;)

Bottom line, though, is that there is a good chance this might become an impossibility very soon. But even if it does happen, Norwich will not be able to offer Athletic Scholarships. If it does happen, however, I will most definitely consider myself a Norwich Cadets fan when it comes to DI Hockey (as of right now, I support both the UVM Catamounts for geographical reasons and the Bemidji State Beavers for the historical reasons of their previous DII and DIII participation). :cool:

d3follower
02-05-2010, 01:49 AM
I thought that D1 had a moratorium on play-ups in a single sport or did that expire??? IIRC, RIT got in under the window . .

CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
02-05-2010, 01:50 AM
I thought that D1 had a moratorium on play-ups in a single sport or did that expire??? IIRC, RIT got in under the window . .

The Moratorium on new memberships that expires in August 2011 also covered single-sport playups. There was not, and is not yet, anything specificly to prevent single-sports playups.

d3follower
02-05-2010, 01:58 AM
The Moratorium on new memberships that expires in August 2011 also covered single-sport playups. There was not, and is not yet, anything specificly to prevent single-sports playups.

I don't understand what you are saying. The moratorium is still in effect and covers single-sport play-ups - that would suggest that new single-sport play-ups are still banned at least until Aug 2011.

CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
02-05-2010, 02:18 AM
I don't understand what you are saying. The moratorium is still in effect and covers single-sport play-ups - that would suggest that new single-sport play-ups are still banned at least until Aug 2011.

And we're talking about the potential of Norwich playing up starting in 2011-2012, after the (potential) end to the interlock. The NESCAC will be voting on it in April 2010, but it appears to be a commitment through the 2010-2011 season anyway. The moratorium stipulates that anybody can petition for reclassification (even for single-sports) any time, with a deadline of June 2011, but the reclassification wouldn't begin until 2011-2012 academic year no matter when the application was received, meaning that (as it stands now) the 2011-2012 hockey season is fair game. I specifically stated in m post above that the only way Norwich could play up is if either a) the legislation didn't pass, or b) the legislation got delayed until the 2011-2012 legislative cycle, which would mean it wouldn't go into effect until 2012-2013 and a Norwich team playing up in 2011 would be "grandfathered" in. :cool:

So, here is the timeline:
April 2010: NESCAC votes to end interlock
2010-2011 season: Interlock play continues regardless
June 2011 or earlier: Norwich applies for DI playup
2011-2012 season: Norwich begins provisional DI play
2011-2012 season: DI prohibits DII or DIII playups, Norwich is "grandfathered"
2016-2017 season: Norwich becomes postseason-eligible in DI

It should be noted that Norwich likely wouldn't submit the application until after the 2010-2011 postseason, because applying earlier would render them postseason-ineligible for that season in DIII. And again, if the legislation passes in 2010-2011, NU gets hosed.

Dyce
02-05-2010, 02:18 AM
As for the nature of the current moratorium itself, it's an NCAA-wide freeze on ANY type of new membership - institution-wide or single-sport - in Division I until August of 2011 (except for those schools already in the reclassification process).

To build on Cards rule's post, a couple of interesting news items pertaining to the Leadership Council's opinion (or lack thereof) on play-ups: this article (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/di+council+to+complete+membership+standards+discus sion+-+ncaa+news+-+1-11-01), posted just prior to the Council's January 15th meeting, indicates its intention to recommend "a discontinuation of the multidivisional practice that permits Divisions II or III institutions to designate one men’s and one women’s sport in Division I, except in sports that do not have a Division II championship." This kind of exception would seem to be aimed squarely at hockey, and therefore allow play-ups to continue once the moratorium is lifted. However, the post-meeting news item (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/leadership+council+forms+membership+recommendation s) makes no mention of play-ups whatsoever, solely addressing issues surrounding the full membership process. Of course, this could be something that was indeed discussed, but simply not mentioned in the press release, but unfortunately I can't find any other mention of the subject since the 15th :(

CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
02-05-2010, 02:31 AM
As for the nature of the current moratorium itself, it's an NCAA-wide freeze on ANY type of new membership - institution-wide or single-sport - in Division I until August of 2011 (except for those schools already in the reclassification process).

To build on Cards rule's post, a couple of interesting news items pertaining to the Leadership Council's opinion (or lack thereof) on play-ups: this article (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/di+council+to+complete+membership+standards+discus sion+-+ncaa+news+-+1-11-01), posted just prior to the Council's January 15th meeting, indicates its intention to recommend "a discontinuation of the multidivisional practice that permits Divisions II or III institutions to designate one men’s and one women’s sport in Division I, except in sports that do not have a Division II championship." This kind of exception would seem to be aimed squarely at hockey, and therefore allow play-ups to continue once the moratorium is lifted. However, the post-meeting news item (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/leadership+council+forms+membership+recommendation s) makes no mention of play-ups whatsoever, solely addressing issues surrounding the full membership process. Of course, this could be something that was indeed discussed, but simply not mentioned in the press release, but unfortunately I can't find any other mention of the subject since the 15th :(

If this interpretation is correct (note that I was looking at the October 2009 Leadership council meeting, that wording is new to the discussion in January 2010), that would be GREAT for the possibility of NU playing up. :eek:

And perhaps somewhere down the road we could see some more playups. Who amongst posters on THIS board wouldn't like seeing a DI conference consisting of RIT, Norwich, Middlebury, Plattsburgh, Oswego, Elmira, St. Norbert, UW-Superior, St. Scholastica, and Adrian? (sorry, I had to throw that last one in there :p )


EDIT: Just for fun, if the Leadership Council's Oct 2009 proposal were passed, but Norwich started moving up the whole athletic Dept anyway, they would be postseason-ineligible starting in 2011-2012, through 3 years of DII provisional play, 5 years of active DII play, and 5 years of provisional DI play. The next time they would eligible to play in the postseason would be the 2028-2029 season... (non-ice hockey teams would be eligible from '14-'15 season through '17-'18, but would then lost eligibility until '28-'29)

d3follower
02-05-2010, 02:40 AM
Cards and Dyce, thanks for the good info on the mystery that is the NCAA rules. I do recall reading that the moratorium was driven largely by basketball and the little schools that were jumping into D1 for basketball purposes so maybe the door won't be shut on hockey play-ups after the moratorium expires. The "except in sports that do not have DII championships" would probably work for St. A's - it's impossible to determine, though, whether it is intended to include D3 schools.

Dyce
02-05-2010, 02:51 AM
Cards and Dyce, thanks for the good info on the mystery that is the NCAA rules. I do recall reading that the moratorium was driven largely by basketball and the little schools that were jumping into D1 for basketball purposes so maybe the door won't be shut on hockey play-ups after the moratorium expires. The "except in sports that do not have DII championships" would probably work for St. A's - it's impossible to determine, though, whether it is intended to include D3 schools.
Good call; I was thinking about that myself. In light of the prevailing view at the moment, it seems to make sense that the Council's primary goal with that exception is to allow DII programs the opportunity to compete for a national championship if their own division can't offer one. Of course, the counter-argument there is that allowing DIII play-ups as well would lessen the potential for an awkward situation where programs reclassify from DIII to DII in order to play a DI sport.