Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The fact that the NCAA has just determined Geneseo had a recruiting advantage over other schools* while Schultz was racking up this winning percentage is especially concerning. Where's the issue then? A superior recruiting advantage, combined with a solid coach, should lead to success on the ice. The fact we can establish Geneseo had a recruiting advantage, seems to suggest Schultz either isn't a very good recruiter, or isn't a very good coach. And that conclusion raises questions if he'll be able to bring the program back to prominance after this latest setback and being forced to entice players on the same playing field as all other schools operate.

I know for a fact that Schultz has not been able to do some of the things that Brian Hills was allowed to do. The school changed the rules on him such as admission standards. He has always been at a recruiting disadvantage compared to his predecessor.

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

I clicked on your link to the "recruiting violations" link in the bottom of your signature and I can't help but think there might be a few other programs that won't be sleeping well in the months to come.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I know for a fact that many D3 schools have similar programs. What about the old system of allowing Canadian students to pay with Canadian dollars on par with American dollars back when the exchange rate was huge? Interesting how only "hockey" schools offered that...

[one_to7]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The majority??? Thats not a lot of Canadians considering the percentage of students playing hockey as are enrolled.

I'm fairly sure the canadians on oswego's hockey team make up the vast majority of the canadians that attend the college. Having a grant for canadian students would be disproportionately weighted towards athletes, by a large margin.

Oswego gives aid to pretty much all foreign students as far as I know though, so the program encompesses a much larger body than just the hockey team (who make up a minority of those receiving aid from that program.)

The ruling said that the NCAA didn't believe anyone was trying to break the rules, just that in having a large % of the grant recipients being athletes resulted in an unfair situation.

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Oswego gives aid to pretty much all foreign students as far as I know though, so the program encompesses a much larger body than just the hockey team (who make up a minority of those receiving aid from that program.)

But so did Geneseo. That's why I don't understand this.

[NUProf]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Not having read the rest of the thread, this isn't how I read it.

I read it as it was open to all canadians, it just happened that virtually ALL the canadians at the schools were athletes, so it basically turned into an athletic grant even though it wasn't intended that way.

The concept is that there is a violation if one can determine from a student's financial aid package whether or not student is an athlete. (that somewhat oversimplifying, but basically that is the intent). The rule is phrased differently, but that is the effect. Genesso and Buffalo State would have been okay if the proportion of students accepting Canadian grants was the same (or higher) among the general student population as it was among athletes. If the only once with the grant are athletes the school is in trouble, it doesn't matter if the grant was available to any Canadian, only that the only students accepting the grant were hockey players.

[one_to7]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

But so did Geneseo. That's why I don't understand this.

Is it possible that they had another grant that was just for canadians? That's what the article made it seem like. Not exactly the most illuminating or well written release I've seen from the NCAA...

edit: NUProf: that's how I took it. It wasn't intended to be an athletic grant, but since it was aimed at canadians, and the vast majority of canadians taking advantage of the grant were athletes, the NCAA brought the hammer down. At Oswego when I was there, I knew of ONE canadian attending the school who wasn't an athlete. The program wasn't just for canadians though, many asians and europeans took advantage of it too, and their numbers dwarfed the athletes probably something like 10 to 1.

[NUProf]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Is it possible that they had another grant that was just for canadians? That's what the article made it seem like. Not exactly the most illuminating or well written release I've seen from the NCAA...

edit: NUProf: that's how I took it. It wasn't intended to be an athletic grant, but since it was aimed at canadians, and the vast majority of canadians taking advantage of the grant were athletes, the NCAA brought the hammer down. At Oswego when I was there, I knew of ONE canadian attending the school who wasn't an athlete. The program wasn't just for canadians though, many asians and europeans took advantage of it too, and their numbers dwarfed the athletes probably something like 10 to 1.

If the grants are target at Canadians, and the only Canadians who accept them are hockey players, Houston, you have a problem.

[AGPennypacker]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What Geneseo should have done was given out a scholarship call a "Hockey Scholarship." This could have been available to the entire student population, but only granted to those students that participated in hockey. Inevitably, the NCAA would come in and argue that the students were unfairly advantaged to getting a higher education. The students would be barred from attending classes for 2 years. Geneseo would then self impose a punishment whereby only hockey players can go to class, but the courses must be taught by the team skate-sharpener.

[Dyce]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

But so did Geneseo. That's why I don't understand this.

If I had to guess, I'd say the distinguishing factor might simply be that Geneseo and Buff State had whistleblowers. I assume the NCAA doesn't launch investigations into the recruiting practices of DIII hockey programs of their own volition, meaning that a relevant party (perhaps an unhappy American player) probably took it upon him/herself to make the NCAA aware of the situation. Of course, the implication there is that the whole "Canadian financial aid as recruiting incentive" tactic, once thought a relatively safe means of drawing players to a program, might actually be one unhappy student away from big trouble for a given program.

I would recommend that those particularly interested in the case keep an eye out here. Assuming the NCAA classifies these as major infractions (and it seems like they would considering the penalties), there should be official reports on the investigations filed on that site at some point (I can't find anything yet, unfortunately).

[CollegeHockey2591]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Simply, I am ****ed. As a non-athlete student, I was always irked by the enhancements, of all types, offered to athletes at the school. As much as we're all a fan of athletics and enjoy collegiate sports, it seemed preposterous to me that at a Division-III state institution, how extensive the university's endorsement of dual experiences for athletes and non-athletes was. You expect something like that at Duke, but not Geneseo or Buffalo State.

If the postseason ban were for any length of time beyond this year, it would be assuredly the nail in the coffin for Geneseo hockey. It may still be, but it's less certain. The Canadian influx has been widespread throughout the SUNYAC, so this might not be the last we hear about this. However, this mechanism was a strong measure to get hockey players to the school. Geneseo's academic situation is much different than, say Oswego's or Plattsburgh's - and the school is only getting more selective. Getting top hockey players who can get into the school - with the NCAA carefully watching the admissions process - will become even more difficult.

Geneseo has, aside from a few brief spurts, been a historically average program, with brief spurts of success mired by significant droughts of sub-10 win seasons. Taking out this mechanism, the future does not look bright for the Ice Knights. You only need look at Morrisville or Lebanon Valley to see what taking the hope (hope of a playoff berth, hope of a postseason run, hope of tasting the NCAAs) out of the locker room does. There's only one person left associated with the hockey program at Geneseo that was around when the team won its back-to-back league championships, and that's assistant coach Kris Heeres. The culture of winning that existed in my early years at the school has completely dissipated.

Chris Schultz took over for Jason Lammers in 2006-7. That year Mitch Stephens only had ten goals against 45 assists, and dispite being the team's most dynamic threat, spent most of the power play hovering away from the net. That team also included Mike MacDonald, Steve Jordan, Mark Schwamberger, and Brett Bestwick making their final appearances in Geneseo uniforms. Once that core of Geneseo's championship teams left, Scultz guided the team to a combined record of 30-39-2, including this season. That's a winning percentage of .437. And it doesn't look like it's about to get better, does it? The fact that the NCAA has just determined Geneseo had a recruiting advantage over other schools* while Schultz was racking up this winning percentage is especially concerning. Where's the issue then? A superior recruiting advantage, combined with a solid coach, should lead to success on the ice. The fact we can establish Geneseo had a recruiting advantage, seems to suggest Schultz either isn't a very good recruiter, or isn't a very good coach. And that conclusion raises questions if he'll be able to bring the program back to prominance after this latest setback and being forced to entice players on the same playing field as all other schools operate.

So Geneseo's administrators have to make a choice on how seriously they want to take athletics, especially their largest drawing sport of hockey. They need to decide if they want to commit financial resources legitimately, or if they want to focus on being an academic instiution. And if they are going to put the monetary resources into athletics, they need to determine if they are getting the best possible value for their dollar.

Suffice it to say, there are no happy Geneseo hockey fans today.

*And it is a recruiting advantage. Other schools might do that same thing, but if they do it in an acceptable manner to include the entire student body, that means they either have fewer opportunities for athletes, or are spending a wider portion of their budget on it, decreasing services elsewhere and making the insitutiton as a whole less attractive.

Pipe down.

[collegehcky2]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

What Geneseo should have done was given out a scholarship call a "Hockey Scholarship." This could have been available to the entire student population, but only granted to those students that participated in hockey. Inevitably, the NCAA would come in and argue that the students were unfairly advantaged to getting a higher education. The students would be barred from attending classes for 2 years. Geneseo would then self impose a punishment whereby only hockey players can go to class, but the courses must be taught by the team skate-sharpener.

Huh?

[d3follower]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

If I had to guess, I'd say the distinguishing factor might simply be that Geneseo and Buff State had whistleblowers. I assume the NCAA doesn't launch investigations into the recruiting practices of DIII hockey programs of their own volition, meaning that a relevant party (perhaps an unhappy American player) probably took it upon him/herself to make the NCAA aware of the situation. . . .

The NCAA adopted a rule a few years ago for D3 schools requiring the comparison of financial aid provided to athletes and that provided to non-athletes. IIRC, the rule initially required the submissions of comparative financial aid data for each school. Eventually, the NCAA started looking at the disparities between financial aid for athletes and that for non-atheletes, which was probably how Geneseo and Buff State got caught . . .

[Dyce]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The NCAA adopted a rule a few years ago for D3 schools requiring the comparison of financial aid provided to athletes and that provided to non-athletes. IIRC, the rule initially required the submissions of comparative financial aid data for each school. Eventually, the NCAA started looking at the disparities between financial aid for athletes and that for non-atheletes, which was probably how Geneseo and Buff State got caught . . .

Ah, good to know. I do hope that reports are filed at some point, as the NCAA seems to do a good job providing both detail and transparency in such publications; the report on Plattsburgh State's infractions is quite informative, for example.

[Matthew Webb]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

The NCAA adopted a rule a few years ago for D3 schools requiring the comparison of financial aid provided to athletes and that provided to non-athletes. IIRC, the rule initially required the submissions of comparative financial aid data for each school. Eventually, the NCAA started looking at the disparities between financial aid for athletes and that for non-atheletes, which was probably how Geneseo and Buff State got caught . . .

I agree. I suspect this is the crux of what initiated this whole thing...

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Buffalo State, SUNY Geneseo penalized for aid violations

Fact: The Canadian incentive package was offered to all Canadians attending Geneseo. It just so happens that the majority of Canadians at the school play hockey. I do know of a specific case where there was a girl at Geneseo from Canada that did not play any sports that also received the incentive.

I'm curious to know how the Oswegos and Plattsburgs of D3 attract so much Canadian talent. Don't they have financial aid packages?

Apparantly some didn't...and yes, Those two schools do give out aid to Canadian talent....but they also have to give it across the board to every student equally based...obviously Geneseo and Buff didn't.

After talking with Coach Houle tonight, he knew it was going to happen, but not when...BTW they were headed to play Buff State this weekend.