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bigmrg74
01-19-2010, 12:50 AM
Leadership Council forms membership recommendations (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/leadership+council+forms+membership+recommendation s)

Simply put, a school would now really have to have all of its affairs in order to be able to make a whole sale move up to D1 athletics for all of its athletic department. Good thing too in my opinion as there's way too many rinky dink schools out there that are just D1 in name only, just so that they can have their names on the ESPN ticker to show everybody how badly some other school thumped them again. NJIT anybody??

Thankfully, Men's D1 hockey shouldn't have that much of a problem with this as that there's no longer any D2 Hockey being played anymore. Only problem I would really see here would be for any new D3 schools that would want to play up in D1 for hockey. They would now be forced to move the rest of their athletic department up to D2 status, and then they would be able to go D1 for hockey I believe. Any future Canadian Schools would just have to go D2 anyways for the rest of their sports anyways.

The Rube
01-19-2010, 01:43 AM
This could be good or bad for college hockey, and I'm leaning toward bad.

Good: keeps out the schools that have no business being D1 in all sports (or most sports) and having the crap beat out of them at the D1 level, leaving them to eventually fold or revert back to a lower status.

Bad: Some schools, like SCSU, MTU, RPI, Maine, etc don't have any business being D1 in anything BUT hockey, so those types of schools may say it's not worth the effort to attempt a bigger status for one sport, and that would severely slow down, if not stop, the growth of college hockey. Also may lend to other schools (bear with me) like PSU, IA, etc to add on college hockey teams to broaden their sports programs, and resulting in an attempt at the dreaded BTHC (like I said, bear with me here).

I don't like it.

Red Cloud
01-19-2010, 01:50 AM
Bad: Some schools, like SCSU, MTU, RPI, Maine, etc don't have any business being D1 in anything BUT hockey, so those types of schools may say it's not worth the effort to attempt a bigger status for one sport, and that would severely slow down, if not stop, the growth of college hockey. Also may lend to other schools (bear with me) like PSU, IA, etc to add on college hockey teams to broaden their sports programs, and resulting in an attempt at the dreaded BTHC (like I said, bear with me here).

Not sure what you're getting at here. I could easily see RPI being able to handle a Division I athletic department - matter of fact, it's been discussed a number of times in the mold of Patriot League schools - and Maine is Division I in everything. Agree on MTU, SCSU seems different just because I highly doubt MnSCU (or even the rest of the U of M system) would never let any school challenge the U for in-state visibility.

The Rube
01-19-2010, 01:52 AM
Not sure what you're getting at here. I could easily see RPI being able to handle a Division I athletic department - matter of fact, it's been discussed a number of times in the mold of Patriot League schools - and Maine is Division I in everything. Agree on MTU, SCSU seems different just because I highly doubt MnSCU (or even the rest of the U of M system) would never let any school challenge the U for in-state visibility.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see RPI and Maine really competing in D1 bouncyball or football (the main moneymaking sports in college, which IMO this whole thing boils down to).

Red Cloud
01-19-2010, 04:33 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see RPI and Maine really competing in D1 bouncyball or football (the main moneymaking sports in college, which IMO this whole thing boils down to).

Depends on what you mean by "competing." Win a national championship? Probably not - but neither does over 75% of either sport. Succeeding with their conferences? It's doable. Competing in Division I isn't solely about success and titles. Sometimes its about the priorities at the school including top level competition.

Example in basketball - Siena's a school near RPI that is smaller and less prestigious academically. Yet, they're a Division I athletic program that is considered one of the best mid-major teams in the nation in basketball - they beat Vanderbilt and Ohio State in the NCAA tournament in the last two seasons. By your estimation, that shouldn't be possible.

FlagDUDE08
01-19-2010, 05:35 AM
Actually given RPI's new upgrades to facilities, I wouldn't be surprised if we actually were trying to make that push. Size-wise, I'm sure if Colgate can handle it, then we probably could (and let's face it, we're larger in terms of enrollment). Obviously there's also other considerations, such as losing rivalries (RPI-Union football, a big one in the state), athletic prowess as previously mentioned, and probably a few others I am overlooking.

Ralph Baer
01-19-2010, 06:37 AM
Actually given RPI's new upgrades to facilities, I wouldn't be surprised if we actually were trying to make that push. Size-wise, I'm sure if Colgate can handle it, then we probably could (and let's face it, we're larger in terms of enrollment). Obviously there's also other considerations, such as losing rivalries (RPI-Union football, a big one in the state), athletic prowess as previously mentioned, and probably a few others I am overlooking.

The possibility of RPI elevating its overall program to D2 or D1 came up at the time of the proposal to eliminate athletic scholarships for the D3 playup schools. (six years ago, now :eek: ) As I recall, there was pretty general agreement that D2 wouldn't work. Who would want St. Rose as a rival? RC mentioned the Patriot League. In D1, it seems to the best fit, and somewhere the rumor came up that we and John Hopkins would do that if the proposition to end scholarships was approved. In my opinion, whether there was any truth to the rumor was not established. I don't think it ever was mentioned in the print media.

Would RPI do it now? I hope not, as I see in an overall D1 program, basketball overtaking hockey in interest.

TimU
01-19-2010, 07:19 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see RPI and Maine really competing in D1 bouncyball or football (the main moneymaking sports in college, which IMO this whole thing boils down to).

How is Maine different than schools like BU, UVM, UNH, or Northeastern in that regard? UVM hasn't fielded a football team in almost 40 years and just dropped baseball. But they've played in the NCAA basketball tournament recently.

FlagDUDE08
01-19-2010, 07:29 AM
How is Maine different than schools like BU, UVM, UNH, or Northeastern in that regard? UVM hasn't fielded a football team in almost 40 years and just dropped baseball. But they've played in the NCAA basketball tournament recently.

They dropped baseball? Oh lordy, what will Channel 3 have to talk about now in the spring? Thunder Road? Kevin LePage in NASCAR? :D

That is definitely a consideration that teams do not have to field various sports. However given RPI's athletic upgrades, I don't think we will be dropping any sports anytime soon.

TimU
01-19-2010, 08:54 AM
They dropped baseball? Oh lordy, what will Channel 3 have to talk about now in the spring? Thunder Road? Kevin LePage in NASCAR? :D

:)

UVM does have a pretty decent lacrosse team.

joecct
01-19-2010, 09:27 AM
As a sidelight to this, didn't the NCAA D-1 boys kill all future play-ups except for the current ones?

I'm telling you, the camel's nose is under the tent flap and soon the D-1 suits will be giving the boot to all the "inferiors". That day will be a black day for college hockey and lacrosse, but the NCAA (read CB$ and E$PN) only care about 1-A football and men's D-1 basketball. The rest is window dressing.

Red Cloud
01-19-2010, 09:33 AM
Actually given RPI's new upgrades to facilities, I wouldn't be surprised if we actually were trying to make that push. Size-wise, I'm sure if Colgate can handle it, then we probably could (and let's face it, we're larger in terms of enrollment). Obviously there's also other considerations, such as losing rivalries (RPI-Union football, a big one in the state), athletic prowess as previously mentioned, and probably a few others I am overlooking.

It's OK, Dude, you're covered. I wrote a dissertation on the subject.

Red Cloud
01-19-2010, 09:34 AM
I'm telling you, the camel's nose is under the tent flap and soon the D-1 suits will be giving the boot to all the "inferiors".

Those "inferiors" are among the "D-1 suits." The NCAA isn't some monolith as it's portrayed to be.

LtPowers
01-19-2010, 09:59 AM
As a sidelight to this, didn't the NCAA D-1 boys kill all future play-ups except for the current ones?

That would suck. RIT is still waiting to bring their women's hockey team up, since they just missed getting the application in before the moratorium was established. I would hope they'd make an exception for gender balance reasons.


Powers &8^]

pinch
01-19-2010, 10:06 AM
Am I missing something? This seems to only talk about "new" schools, not any of the above mentioned schools. I dont see any non D1 school looking to add varsity hockey at at the D1 level

NMU8405
01-19-2010, 10:10 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see RPI and Maine really competing in D1 bouncyball or football (the main moneymaking sports in college, which IMO this whole thing boils down to).

Maine makes a run for the America East title every few years and makes the NCAA BBall tourny. Albeit, as the 16 or 15 seed and the right to get smashed by UNC, Duke, UConn, etc...

In Football, they play in the CAA which is the most competitive in formally named 1-AA. They make the 1-AA playoffs every now and then. Maine has played Iowa, Rutgers, Connecticut, Syracuse, and are to play the University of Pittsburgh in 2011. They also beat Mississippi State back in the mid 2000s.

UMaine Orono is the only D-1 school in the state. Stop picking on them :P Its not even the largest school in Maine

NMU8405
01-19-2010, 10:14 AM
How is Maine different than schools like BU, UVM, UNH, or Northeastern in that regard? UVM hasn't fielded a football team in almost 40 years and just dropped baseball. But they've played in the NCAA basketball tournament recently.

Coppenwrath was a beast. He and Vermont helped my win my NCAA pool that year. Thanks UVM.

Correct me if Im wrong, but BU hasnt had a football team for at least a few decades?

bigmrg74
01-19-2010, 04:15 PM
The possibility of RPI elevating its overall program to D2 or D1 came up at the time of the proposal to eliminate athletic scholarships for the D3 playup schools. (six years ago, now :eek: ) As I recall, there was pretty general agreement that D2 wouldn't work. Who would want St. Rose as a rival? RC mentioned the Patriot League. In D1, it seems to the best fit, and somewhere the rumor came up that we and John Hopkins would do that if the proposition to end scholarships was approved. In my opinion, whether there was any truth to the rumor was not established. I don't think it ever was mentioned in the print media.

Would RPI do it now? I hope not, as I see in an overall D1 program, basketball overtaking hockey in interest.D2 could work for a school like RPI if you could get the right schools to go into a league with you. If I'm not mistaken, RIT isn't allowed to give out scholorships because they still a D3 school that move hockey up to D1 after everybody else was Grandfathered. If they moved up to D2, then they would be able to give scholorships as well. And there are a few other D3 schools with D1 hockey or D1 lacrosse squads where it could be in their own mutual benefit to be in a league together. There are a few D2's that are in New York that this league could collect as well. C.W. Post does come to mind, and there are a few other schools in the PSAC that could be interested as well. Mercyhurst probably wouldn't mind being in a NY based league where schools have a sport that play up. And any league that Mercyhurst goes to, Gannon, their cross town rivals in Erie, PA would probably want to sign up for as well.

Its certainly something to think about.

Rolevio
01-19-2010, 04:33 PM
D2 could work for a school like RPI if you could get the right schools to go into a league with you. If I'm not mistaken, RIT isn't allowed to give out scholorships because they still a D3 school that move hockey up to D1 after everybody else was Grandfathered. If they moved up to D2, then they would be able to give scholorships as well. And there are a few other D3 schools with D1 hockey or D1 lacrosse squads where it could be in their own mutual benefit to be in a league together. There are a few D2's that are in New York that this league could collect as well. C.W. Post does come to mind, and there are a few other schools in the PSAC that could be interested as well. Mercyhurst probably wouldn't mind being in a NY based league where schools have a sport that play up. And any league that Mercyhurst goes to, Gannon, their cross town rivals in Erie, PA would probably want to sign up for as well.

Its certainly something to think about.

RC pretty much already covered it, but D2 doesn't do much for any of the New York D3 schools, all it does is increase cost dramatically with almost nothing to gain. I'm not familiar with RIT, but like RC said I can't see any of the Liberty League schools (Union, RPI, Clarkson, SLU) jumping for joy to play St. Rose and CW Post.

dggoddard
01-19-2010, 05:16 PM
There has been tremendous population & demographic shifts in this country from rural to urban areas, northern to Sunbelt locales, the population of non-whites has grown dramatically & the US population has doubled since 1950. The percentage of population that has access to a college education through loans and scholarships has grown exponentially.

Obviously colleges and universities can't move, so I see this NCAA move limiting the growth, exposure and prestige of new schools wanting to join the party, as a desperate measure to hang on to the golden goose.