PDA

View Full Version : Best Diii Hockey Program To Not Win A National Title



PSUChamps2001
01-11-2010, 11:23 AM
I had this discussion with a few people over the past few weeks....

Who would you concider the best team to never win a National Title?

After visiting the domes this past weekend I am interested to see peoples thoughts on any that could take this claim away from Elmira....

spwood
01-11-2010, 11:27 AM
I had this discussion with a few people over the past few weeks....

Who would you concider the best team to never win a National Title?

After visiting the domes this past weekend I am interested to see peoples thoughts on any that could take this claim away from Elmira....

Elmira was the team that popped into my head. My only other thought was Manhattanville, but I wouldn't put them ahead of Elmira.

CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
01-11-2010, 11:30 AM
I had this discussion with a few people over the past few weeks....

Who would you concider the best team to never win a National Title?

After visiting the domes this past weekend I am interested to see peoples thoughts on any that could take this claim away from Elmira....

Prior to 2007, I would have said Oswego and Elmira were the two best, but now that just leaves Elmira IMHO.

Elmira_College-Fan
01-11-2010, 12:52 PM
Elmira i would have to say

Dyce
01-11-2010, 01:12 PM
I'd argue that the Tommies have a pretty strong case versus Elmira. It's easy to overlook due to their lack of a presence on this board (at the moment) and relative mediocrity over the past couple of seasons, but they've put up almost nothing but good-to-great records over a 20+ year span under Skrypek. They also edge the Eagles in both tourney appearances (13-12) and finals appearances (2-1).

PrezdeJohnson09
01-11-2010, 02:00 PM
I'd argue that the Tommies have a pretty strong case versus Elmira. It's easy to overlook due to their lack of a presence on this board (at the moment) and relative mediocrity over the past couple of seasons, but they've put up almost nothing but good-to-great records over a 20+ year span under Skrypek. They also edge the Eagles in both tourney appearances (13-12) and finals appearances (2-1).

Now that St. Norbert and Oswego have won....

As far as historically strong teams you'd have to go with both Elmira and St. Thomas leading the pack.

After that I'd start another tier with Manhattanville. Maybe NEC, Bowdoin, Colby, St. Johns?

I'd say Elmira and St. Thomas are far ahead of those five though.

Elmira got screwed with the old NCAA process a lot because RIT won the ECAC West almost every year. There were some darn good Elmira teams that always got overlooked because RIT usually beat them in the ECAC West finals.

Plus Elmira's dynasty years from 88-92ish they got beat out by River Falls, Stevens Point, Mercyhurst, Plattsburgh etc, who all had very strong teams as well.

d3follower
01-11-2010, 02:49 PM
I would say that Bowdoin should be on that list - it had very strong teams in the 1980s but was barred by NESCAC rules from participating in the NCAA play-offs.

Dyce
01-11-2010, 03:35 PM
I would say that Bowdoin should be on that list - it had very strong teams in the 1980s but was barred by NESCAC rules from participating in the NCAA play-offs.
An interesting thought, and I'd say Bowdoin (and most of the rest of the NESCAC) also found themselves at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the country even once the conference opened up to postseason play. Prior to the advent of the conference tournament, there was zero potential for an upset autobid recipient. Moreover, while an at-large bid wasn't impossible, the members' shorter schedule and lack of a postseason resume made it an uphill battle for anyone besides the regular-season champ; according to Norm's fantastic list (http://board.uscho.com/showpost.php?p=4558997&postcount=37) from the speculation thread, I count three non-Middlebury appearances by NESCAC teams prior to the conference tourney era.

d3follower
01-11-2010, 03:46 PM
. . Moreover, while an at-large bid wasn't impossible, the members' shorter schedule and lack of a postseason resume made it an uphill battle for anyone besides the regular-season champ; according to Norm's fantastic list (http://board.uscho.com/showpost.php?p=4558997&postcount=37) from the speculation thread, I count three non-Middlebury appearances by NESCAC teams prior to the conference tourney era.

The at-large bid was an impossibility for Bowdoin and the other NESCACs throughout the 1980s and until the early 1990s. Up until about about 1992/93, the NESCAC schools were barred from post-season play except for the ECACs. At the time, this wasn't such a bad deal because the ECAC was a powerful conference with several now D1 teams (Merrimack, Holy Cross, UConn, AIC, etc. most recently but also Army, Union, UMass Lowell, etc in earlier years). Starting in roughly 1992 and running for a few years, the NESCACs were given the choice of either ECAC or NCAA post-season play - this made for some interesting dilemmas for some good teams that passed on an ECAC bid but did not receive an NCAA bid.

Dyce
01-11-2010, 04:24 PM
The at-large bid was an impossibility for Bowdoin and the other NESCACs throughout the 1980s and until the early 1990s. Up until about about 1992/93, the NESCAC schools were barred from post-season play except for the ECACs. At the time, this wasn't such a bad deal because the ECAC was a powerful conference with several now D1 teams (Merrimack, Holy Cross, UConn, AIC, etc. most recently but also Army, Union, UMass Lowell, etc in earlier years). Starting in roughly 1992 and running for a few years, the NESCACs were given the choice of either ECAC or NCAA post-season play - this made for some interesting dilemmas for some good teams that passed on an ECAC bid but did not receive an NCAA bid.
Yeah, I know about the ban on NCAA play - I was talking more about the period between 1995 and 2001 (I think, sometime in the early 2000s anyway) when the NESCAC opened itself up to NCAA play but simply awarded its conference bid to the regular-season champ due to the "one postseason tournament only" policy you referenced. I guess I would compare it to a macro version of Plattsburgh's 6 straight conference titles from '97 to '02. Plattsburgh only actually ran the SUNYAC tournament without a blemish in two of those seasons, but the minigame/best of three format used at the time allowed them to assert their dominance by taking away the possibility of a single-game upset. The mid-90s NESCAC was like a season-long tournament (sorry to have to use the college football cliche), amplifiying the same effect that Plattsburgh used to its advantage into a situation where an upset champion was impossible by definition.

If the NESCAC used its current tournament format from the get-go, for example, Middlebury would've had to play 15 extra games over their run, and a loss in any of those would've put a NESCAC team besides Middlebury in the tournament. I'm not saying that things would've played out differently (it's more than tempting to throw out the law of averages when it comes to Middlebury, and they certainly could've accomplished the same feat by taking the at-large route to the national title - in fact, that's exactly what they did in '99), but the conference would've had an opportunity for participation on par with other autobid recipients, in any case.

MountieBoyOz
01-11-2010, 05:14 PM
Elmira has to be #1 and then St. Thomas. M'Ville and St. John's are a distant 3rd and 4th.

NUProf
01-11-2010, 06:59 PM
Yeah, I know about the ban on NCAA play - I was talking more about the period between 1995 and 2001 (I think, sometime in the early 2000s anyway) when the NESCAC opened itself up to NCAA play but simply awarded its conference bid to the regular-season champ due to the "one postseason tournament only" policy you referenced. I guess I would compare it to a macro version of Plattsburgh's 6 straight conference titles from '97 to '02. Plattsburgh only actually ran the SUNYAC tournament without a blemish in two of those seasons, but the minigame/best of three format used at the time allowed them to assert their dominance by taking away the possibility of a single-game upset. The mid-90s NESCAC was like a season-long tournament (sorry to have to use the college football cliche), amplifiying the same effect that Plattsburgh used to its advantage into a situation where an upset champion was impossible by definition.

If the NESCAC used its current tournament format from the get-go, for example, Middlebury would've had to play 15 extra games over their run, and a loss in any of those would've put a NESCAC team besides Middlebury in the tournament. I'm not saying that things would've played out differently (it's more than tempting to throw out the law of averages when it comes to Middlebury, and they certainly could've accomplished the same feat by taking the at-large route to the national title - in fact, that's exactly what they did in '99), but the conference would've had an opportunity for participation on par with other autobid recipients, in any case.

Actually, the NESCAC did not get an autobid until the split between the NESCAC and ECAC East that was inspired by the Pool System. Middlebury's bids to the NCAAs during those years was due to their choice to sit out of the ECAC East tournament, and wait for a potential at large bid. At that time only the MIAC and SUNYAC got autobids as multisport conferences. I recall that Norwich lost in the quarters of the ECAC East tournament 1997 (the last game played in Taylor Arena was the finals of the 1997 ECAC East, but Norwich didn't play in it), but was the only ECAC East team to get an NCAA bid. In 1999, the ECAC East still included all the NESCACs, and the Pool system started in 99-00.

Dyce
01-11-2010, 07:56 PM
Cool, thanks for the corrections - my memory from back then is kinda hazy, and I certainly wasn't aware that the NCHA was autobid-less from their single-sport status.

Sir Nubs
01-11-2010, 09:06 PM
You could make a case St. Thomas has three runner-ups if one were inclined to include 2008. They stood toe-to-toe with SNC that year in an awesome game in the quarterfinals. Probably should have won if Jones didn't pull a save out of his you-know-what in the final 30 seconds. :D

Derek Dunning
01-11-2010, 09:07 PM
You could make a case St. Thomas has three runner-ups if one were inclined to include 2008. They stood toe-to-toe with SNC that year in an awesome game in the quarterfinals. Probably should have won if Jones didn't pull a save out of his you-know-what in the final 30 seconds. :D

Elmira won the last time they played 7-3 in the Pathfiner bank tourney in 2007so they get the nod:D