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scrambledlegs
11-08-2009, 09:57 PM
Happened to see the PC vs NU game today and was surprised by Schelling's goalie mask. It is huge. I don't think I have ever seen one like that before. Given the large number of goalie supporters on this thread, is this even legal?

Bergey1
11-08-2009, 10:24 PM
I personally never liked that mask, just from an aesthetic standpoint. She wore that at the 2008 Worlds, so I would guess it is not illegal.

I do prefer more traditional ones though.

notfromaroundhere
11-08-2009, 11:09 PM
Happened to see the PC vs NU game today and was surprised by Schelling's goalie mask. It is huge. I don't think I have ever seen one like that before. Given the large number of goalie supporters on this thread, is this even legal?

I've never seen regs about size of masks, only about the fact that parts have to be protective in nature. I imagine that if you made one 4 feet tall by 6 feet wide, they'd probably write a new rule. :p

BlackBart
11-09-2009, 07:00 AM
I found a picture of her wearing the mask on the NY Times website. It reminds of those worn by Dominik Hasek or Arturs Irbe. Just a little like Chris Osgood. I've heard it called the Birdcage mask and one of the advantages of this mask is better overall vision. Especially up/down as well as laterally.

scrambledlegs
11-09-2009, 09:50 AM
Thanks for no one jumping on my question regarding whether it was legal (probably poor choice of words late at night). Obviously, for all the games she has played, it would have to be (cause it is not like you can miss it :D ).

I also looked up some of the other goalies mentione that favor the birdcage mask (Hasek, Irbe, Osgood, etc) and I find hers even more exaggerated than theirs. Not only does it extend out to the side, but it goes so high on the front of the helmet. This link shows one of the clearer pictures. http://www.hockeyeastonline.com/women/recaps10.php?wnoever1.o31

Anyway, apparently it works for her, I was just surprised by the size of it.

Radar3535
11-10-2009, 05:32 PM
Thanks for no one jumping on my question regarding whether it was legal (probably poor choice of words late at night). Obviously, for all the games she has played, it would have to be (cause it is not like you can miss it :D ).

I also looked up some of the other goalies mentione that favor the birdcage mask (Hasek, Irbe, Osgood, etc) and I find hers even more exaggerated than theirs. Not only does it extend out to the side, but it goes so high on the front of the helmet. This link shows one of the clearer pictures. http://www.hockeyeastonline.com/women/recaps10.php?wnoever1.o31

Anyway, apparently it works for her, I was just surprised by the size of it.
Actually your legal question was not so crazy. Goalies are recommended to wear an HECC approved helmet.The NCAA also recommends that a goalie wear a "goalie" helmet with a wire cage that meets standards established by HECC.
I heard a story once about a D1 institution telling one of their female goalies that they could not wear the same helmet (made of fiberglass with independent suspension) used in the NHL by Dominick Hasek,Dan Cloutier and an Ottawa Senators goalie( name escapes me) because it was not HECC certified. They supposedly went as far as contacting an NHL team to discuss. When the NCAA rules were brought to their attention, the institution claimed they would not allow it for insurance reasons.
Hasek wore a Warwick helmet, Irbe I believe wore a Jofa and Osgood wears an old Copper. As far as "Cats Eye" cages they were certified at one time but are still very dangerous because a stick blade can possibly fit through the eye opening.

Hey we finally found something I know about! :D

goaliedad35
11-10-2009, 06:13 PM
I also went to the NCAA website and was surprised to see the rules as recommending HECC certification. This really leaves the door open. Regarding Schelling's headgear it is Jofa and is likely HECC certified as most of their helmets are and the mask is of a design that would usually pass as they tend to focus on the size of the openings in the cage. What I am surprised to confirm is that with HECC being RECOMMENDED only this actually allows for the use of cats' eye cages which are not HECC approved due to size of the openings directly in front of the goalie's eyes. This is the style favoured by the vast majority of NHLers as it provides a much larger unobstructed field of vision. Most goalies have by now adjusted to cages that are indeed HECC approved as they are required by USA hockey/Hockey Canada but interestingly enough they are not required at the NCAA level. I would suggest a rule book be available if someone wanted to test the issue at a game level!

Hockeydad4two
11-10-2009, 06:26 PM
Many moons ago, I found the text for the certifications from both Canada and the US concerning goalie masks. What I remember is that for a mask to be "HECC certified" both the mask and helmet had to be certified together. If you changed the type/brand of cage, you voided the certification. You could even void the certification just by painting it with unapproved paints or methods.

Now looking for ASTM standards referenced by HECC, I've run up against having to pay to see those standards. Does anyone have any more up to date info?

LakersFan
11-10-2009, 06:44 PM
What I want to know is where she gets the wire cage from? Is it custom? Field hockey goalies used to wear the Hasek type mask, but they are moving towards the ice hockey version. I have never seen anything like Schelling's cage. I used to wear the Hasek-type goalie mask when I played goalie in adult beer leagues. I had better peripheral vision, especially when I was looking down for the puck. I could also find the puck much faster when I had to fish it out of the net :D

LakersFan
11-10-2009, 07:03 PM
Now looking for ASTM standards referenced by HECC, I've run up against having to pay to see those standards. Does anyone have any more up to date info?

If you happen to know anybody that works for a large research university, they should have access to such documents. Perhaps the gentlemen who does the Rutter Rankings threads would be nice enough to help you out if you dropped him an email through his website.

Radar3535
11-10-2009, 07:47 PM
What I want to know is where she gets the wire cage from? Is it custom? Field hockey goalies used to wear the Hasek type mask, but they are moving towards the ice hockey version. I have never seen anything like Schelling's cage.
The supposed up side to a regular mask is the shape is suppose to deflect the impact of puck better. That being said, I wonder if the larger cage( the way it extends past the helmet) would actually transmit more energy to the head from a puck. Disclaimer: Science is not my forte! :D

The Boomer
11-10-2009, 09:52 PM
I don't think the cage is bigger--maybe she just has a small head . . .

dhmn
11-11-2009, 02:00 AM
Johanna Ellison (UMD senior last year) wore that style, though it was with the standard helmet.. I just think the Jofa helmet makes it seem bigger because her (Schelling's) cage looks the same size in the pictures I've found.

This is the Ellison cage on the regular helmet http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0buZ5uz98T595/610x.jpg

The Schelling mask http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eaW6Wrgv79TW/610x.jpg

Hopefully these images work as they're cached from that daylife website when I googled.

Ellison always used that different neck guard (that she also used in high school) that was tied on rather than the snap on one that Schelling used with the Jofa helmet, it seemed the referees checked it each week since no other goaltenders seem to ever have *that* anymore.

With all that said.. it's strange to see goaltenders with this version anymore but whatever works for them.

CrazyDave
11-11-2009, 08:13 AM
The supposed up side to a regular mask is the shape is suppose to deflect the impact of puck better. That being said, I wonder if the larger cage( the way it extends past the helmet) would actually transmit more energy to the head from a puck. Disclaimer: Science is not my forte! :D


Johanna Ellison (UMD senior last year) wore that style, though it was with the standard helmet.. I just think the Jofa helmet makes it seem bigger because her (Schelling's) cage looks the same size in the pictures I've found.

This is the Ellison cage on the regular helmet http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0buZ5uz98T595/610x.jpg

The Schelling mask http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eaW6Wrgv79TW/610x.jpg
I'm not surprised by the questions about Schilling's mask given the amount of overlap between the cage and the helmet. It's pretty dramatic. I'm sure it's legal, but it also seems like a bit of overkill. Ellison's seems like a more reasonable setup -- not that different from any (non-goalie) collegiate players who wear a cage instead of the clear "visor".

Also, looking at the picture of Ellison, you can see that the top bar of the cage is pretty horizontal to align with the forehead edge of the helmet, so there appear to be design differences in that respect.

Tangential question regarding my comments on Ellison's setup: are cages, rather than visors, more common in the men's game than the women's (for non-goaltenders)? Are cages being phased out for those positions in general?

fantasticfrito
11-11-2009, 09:35 AM
Ellison's cage is the player cage that came with that helmet. There is nothing "goalie specific" about her helmet/cage.

LakersFan
11-11-2009, 09:47 AM
Tangential question regarding my comments on Ellison's setup: are cages, rather than visors, more common in the men's game than the women's (for non-goaltenders)? Are cages being phased out for those positions in general?

In the end I think it comes down to personal preference. Visors have an uninterrupted field of vision but they can fog/get wet. Wire cages have wires, which some people say obscures vision. I have always felt that wire cages obscuring vision was 95% mental. As a goalie, in the heat of the moment focusing on the puck, the wires go away. Just like when you shoot a picture of an animal at the zoo, if you get close enough to the cage, the bars are out of focus and the picture is (mostly) clear. Of course, if a school has an equipment contract, kids who have no preference may be steered in one direction. And the number of NHL players with wire cages is zero, I think.

The other strange feature about Schelling's cage is the long flares on the sides (distance between last vertical wire and second to last). This picture shows it the best:

http://www.hockeyeastonline.com/women/recaps10.php?wnoever1.o31

I can't find a cage like that online anywhere. Maybe it is a very old model that she keeps painting to look new. I barely recall a story about Hasek/Osgood/Irbe having the same cage for years, just giving it a new coat of paint every once in a while.

nogoal
11-11-2009, 10:06 AM
I would think that if the size of the cage does not exceed the size of the pads, 10", then everything should be OK. She could lay her face down on the ice, make the save, and feel nothing, except for a little ice.

Hockeydad4two
11-11-2009, 11:08 AM
... She could lay her face down on the ice, make the save, and feel nothing...

If you've ever been hit in the face while wearing one of those, you would never say "feel nothing!"

fantasticfrito
11-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Here is an answer from someone "in the know" over at modsquad regarding Schelling's set-up.


Oh man - that's a classic setup.

Helmet is hard to ID, but I would guess it's a Jofa 390.

The cage is a 387 - maybe a 267. It could also be the Junior models of either, which makes it trickier. It's definitely one of those two because of the forehead coverage. Any shot's going to hit nothing but cage. Actually kind of a smart arrangement: with no point of attachment on the forehead, any impact gets distributed along the sides to the hinges.

Dangler is a plexi 481.

Either way, those probably haven't been manufactured for a decade at least. I hope someone replaced the foam for her...

Hockeydad4two
11-11-2009, 01:15 PM
Here is an answer from someone "in the know" over at modsquad regarding Schelling's set-up.

I wonder if anyone has checked the certification and insurance requirements if it's as old as it sounds.