Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

[scsutommyboy]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

I am paranoid, because this is a really fragile, 58-team ecosystem of college haves, have-somes and have-nots that actually get to play each other. Some good players will still come to Denver, but the truly elite ones won't. UND, CC and Denver are major powers largely because they've always played in the best league and they get players who want to test themselves against the best players from other WCHA schools like Wisconsin and Minnesota. Our schools raised the money to upgrade facilities and TV because over time, Minnesota and Wisconsin are the circled games of the year, and their presence in the WCHA schedule eah year enables schools like ours to televise games. If Denver is only playing schools like Bemidji and Michgan Tech in league play, FSN sure as hell won't be televising us anymore, and when that happens, we lose out on the top kids.

The WCHA runs on money provided by fanbases of the two mealticket schools - Minnesota primarily, and to a lesser but important extent, Wisconsin. When those two leave, the WCHA as a league will be essentially broke overnight, because the Final Five runs on Minnesota fans' wallets. The WCHA tourney is now going to draw 7,000 people instead of 18,000, and it will lose money.

Additionally, when UM and UW leave, they won't be coming to Denver anymore even for non league games, becuase they can play more home non-league games against lesser schools that won't require a return appearance. For example, DU hasn't been able to get Michigan or Michigan State to come play at DU since 1981, when both schools were WCHA members. Michigan and MSU would rather stay home and make hundreds of thousands playing home non-league games.

As bad as it will be for DU, it will be even worse for the SCSUs, UMDs and MSUMs of the world, whose primary rivalries revolve around the Gophers. Taking those schools out of the Gophers' orbit will devastate Minnesota hockey as a culture.

I know I sound homerish on this topic. I do love college hockey and want to see it grow, but I have 30 years of emotional investment in the Denver progam, and would hate to see the hard work that has been put in here relegated to mid-major status in the hockey world.

The one Flaw in all of this is there are only so many spots on 5 big ten teams rosters. Real top of the line recruits are not going to go to Minnesota and play on the 3rd line or 4th line when they go to UND, SCSU or DU and be on the first line and play special teams. I also don't think SCSU's attendance would drop off much if the Gophers are not in the same conference. They don't come every year now and the program seems to draw fine. Wisconsin has not even come to the NHC that many times over the last 15 years because when SCSU got to play the Gophers every year Wisconsin was one of the teams they missed out on. I think if this ever happened and it won't happen any time soon, it would hurt DU and CC far more than the other Minnesota schools and UND because we already get huge crowds for games against those teams. Even though DU and CC are power houses they draw far less fans when they come to SCSU than UND, UMD and Mankato do.

Edit: Of course if more big ten teams join college hockey then drop off of talent would begin.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

For me personally, I still don't like the idea of a big ten cup or whatever you want to call it. It's just going to sap away our already meager OOC matchups. You wouldn't see matchups with Harvard, Maine, Air Force, New Hampshire, or very much of any of the teams outside the two conferences.

I've never seen the problem with the CHS. I've always liked it. But I've also enjoyed watching series against other conferences as well.

[jk]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Swami may be right about all of it, and he probably is right when it comes to the high profile US kids. But the Winnipeggers are still going to UND, the Kodiaks are still going to UMD, Western Canadians are still playing for DU. Will the Cali kids still go to CC and DU? They might be the type to go for the big-name Big 10, but maybe geography matters.

Also, the reason nobody blows out the CHA schools anymore is the leveling of talent across college hockey. Every game is tough. As someone noted, the big schools can't get them all.

Of course, if this comes to pass, we might see the day when MN will have 20 NHL draftees on its team, which should make them unbeata ... oh wait ...

[4four4]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

For me personally, I still don't like the idea of a big ten cup or whatever you want to call it. It's just going to sap away our already meager OOC matchups. You wouldn't see matchups with Harvard, Maine, Air Force, New Hampshire, or very much of any of the teams outside the two conferences.

I've never seen the problem with the CHS. I've always liked it. But I've also enjoyed watching series against other conferences as well.

But the Big Ten in the past has had a tourney/cup.

[UMICHhockeyRULZ]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

For me personally, I still don't like the idea of a big ten cup or whatever you want to call it. It's just going to sap away our already meager OOC matchups. You wouldn't see matchups with Harvard, Maine, Air Force, New Hampshire, or very much of any of the teams outside the two conferences.

I've never seen the problem with the CHS. I've always liked it. But I've also enjoyed watching series against other conferences as well.

They already play each other anyway, just need to rephrase what it is called.

[blockski]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

They already play each other anyway, just need to rephrase what it is called.

Um, Ohio State would like to disagree with you there.

And as much as I like the Showcase, it could be so much more. You've got marquee programs meeting with little to no students in the stands (thanks to the holiday) and no buzz for games that should have some more buzz.

It's a missed opportunity.

[UMICHhockeyRULZ]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Um, Ohio State would like to disagree with you there.

And as much as I like the Showcase, it could be so much more. You've got marquee programs meeting with little to no students in the stands (thanks to the holiday) and no buzz for games that should have some more buzz.

It's a missed opportunity.

Touche.

I convienently forgot about ohio state, please forgive me even though I do try to forget about that cess pool of a university.

Also, your point about the limited number of students is accurate. A friend who went to minny was all excited one year when he was coming to Yost to see/hear the famed atmosphere. He left very dissappointed.

I don't think minnesota has as large of a Holiday issue as most of their students are in-state.

[moose97]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Touche.

I convienently forgot about ohio state, please forgive me even though I do try to forget about that cess pool of a university.

You know, it was interesting to be covering the Subway Classic this year, as I usually take quite an interest in the Showcase, but couldn't have cared less this year. There were a couple reasons for this:

1) The quality of teams in Grand Forks. When you have three of the top six teams in the country, and the Showcase has only one top 15 team, that's not a good sign. Plus, the level of play was simpley outstanding at the Ralph.

2) The storyline - is BSU as good as they think, Frozen Four rematch, etc.

3) Lack of TV coverage for the Showcase

And, it gave me an interesting perspective of the OSU angle. Bemidji State had never played the Buckeyes before, and I can't say I've given them much thought before. I can certainly see their perspective on being the "other" Big 10 hockey team and feeling slighted year after year in the Showcase set-up...

Also, your point about the limited number of students is accurate. A friend who went to minny was all excited one year when he was coming to Yost to see/hear the famed atmosphere. He left very dissappointed.

I don't think minnesota has as large of a Holiday issue as most of their students are in-state.

I think this is a huge misconception. I went to a school with a large number of in-state (local) students (NMU), and it was dead on weekends and holidays over a long weekend. I actually think you'd be in a better situation if you had a school where it's harder to get home, so that kids only leave for the big ones - Christams and Spring Break (as an aside, I briefly considered Alaska-Fairbanks, and my folks told me that I would only come home for Christmas and the end of the school year). Local kids - kids from as close as an hour or so away - go home every weekend or two, and are certainly gone for Thanksgiving...

[blockski]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Well, keep in mind that the idea behind the showcase wasn't so much a reunion of Big Ten schools, but a reunion of schools that all used to play in the WCHA. Ohio State was never part of the WCHA. I can't recall for Munn, but Michigan has WCHA banners in the rafters at Yost.

Moose, I think you make the point that the Showcase is a missed opportunity. It's tied to a holiday weekend for no particularly good reason. It's not like the Lions or Cowboys playing on Thanksgiving - it's a reason to not attend the games rather than a reason you can't miss them.

Depending on how a Big Ten Cup would be structured (for example - would you double-count a game between Wisconsin and Minnesota in both BT and WCHA competitions?), I think you'd have a far better chance to really build up those rivalries.

I think it could be more like an extended version of the Beanpot, really.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Depending on how a Big Ten Cup would be structured (for example - would you double-count a game between Wisconsin and Minnesota in both BT and WCHA competitions?),

I would imagine so. Or you could assign points to individual games, so you could weigh them (a la the way that the Wisconsin-Minnesota Border Battle points are allocated).

[bigmrg74]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

1) They should do more recruiting of schools. Perhaps one of the functions of the newly-formed College Hockey, Inc. should be recruiting other schools to look at hockey as a revenue-producing business case. It will be hard with Title IX of course, but eventually, ADs are going to want sports that can generate some money when properly built. The business case for a hockey at a big school is that a $20-50 million investment in on-campus hockey program can be paid off in 10-15 years or so (or less in a retrofit). Right now, however, it's a tough sell. Lacrosse is likely a cheaper option that can generate revenue for schools looking to add a contact sport.

2) I am all for adding more Big 10, SEC, PAC-10 or other BCS schools to college hockey so that we could someday get to 70-100 teams and create a more national game, with a less fragile center of gravity. I just don't want to see the WCHA relegated to a mid major league in that scenario. What college hockey doesn't need are more schools that aren't willing to really fund the programs to be truly competitive (Wayne State, Findlay, etc.).

Personally, I think what College Hockey, Inc should talk to some of the booster clubs out there and yoke their combined strength in getting more schools to add hockey. Say that they hold talks between all of the current school booster clubs and with the Colorado State group thats trying to get D1 Hockey going at their school. Say that CH Inc can get somewhere between 0.5% to 1.0% of what those booster clubs would normally raise for their own clubs and then give it to CSU as an endowment to be spent on Men's and Women's Hockey together, that would end up be a good chunk of change to further the goal of another school at where once added, hockey would quickly become sustainable. In the future, they could look at other schools where the same gift would go a long ways of helping to grow College Hockey.

[blockski]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

I would imagine so. Or you could assign points to individual games, so you could weigh them (a la the way that the Wisconsin-Minnesota Border Battle points are allocated).

Well, it all depends on how the WCHA schedule gets reduced, too. If UW and MN are playing 4 WCHA games, then yes, double count. If they're only playing 2, then schedule another series.

You'd also have home and away considerations. With 5 teams, you'd want to face two at home and two away. So, if UW and MN are playing 4 times a season in the reduced WCHA, let's say they're also playing at Michigan, at Michigan State, and hosting OSU. Thus, you'd want to count the home series against the Gophers as part of the BTC standings so UW gets 2 home series and 2 road series. The other would just be a regular WCHA series.

The chances for double-counting would be better if the larger conference (i.e the 12 team WCHA) had 3 BT schools instead of 2, but I think we'd all like to see the CCHA be philanthropic and get to 12 teams, too.

[Clifton]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Just a hunch, but I see the "Big Ten" schedule involving one home and one road game against each school (yes, that will involve Wisconsin and Minnesota making a single game trip to Columbus), with most of the other series going along the lines of the Showcase format (one game in Madison, then one in Minneapolis, same for Ann Arbor and East Lansing). If individual schools are playing each other four times in a year, they'll just designate two of the games as "Big Ten games" in advance.

[blockski]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Just a hunch, but I see the "Big Ten" schedule involving one home and one road game against each school (yes, that will involve Wisconsin and Minnesota making a single game trip to Columbus), with most of the other series going along the lines of the Showcase format (one game in Madison, then one in Minneapolis, same for Ann Arbor and East Lansing). If individual schools are playing each other four times in a year, they'll just designate two of the games as "Big Ten games" in advance.

I think that's the best option if the WCHA and CCHA seasons remain at 28 games.

In that case, Minnesota and Wisconsin could pair up for a showcase-like travel partner weekend and tack, say, Miami onto the schedule for a single OOC game each.

Either way, I wasn't anticipating a full 4 games against each BT team - just a regular 2 game series. But that kind of arrangement would require a reduction in the length of the conference seasons.

[ansinator]

Re: Big Ten conference discussed, rejected

Just to throw a wrench in the works here:

Alvarez: Big Ten to Push for 12th Team

A couple of names being thrown around the message boards that could affect hockey are Notre Dame and Boston College. Either of those would give the Big Ten 6 D-1 teams and an auto-bid if they wanted to create a true BTHC.