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PCM
12-31-2009, 01:55 PM
Why do people make it sound like such a noble, difficult thing to do?
Noble? No. Difficult? Yes.

Slap Shot
12-31-2009, 03:31 PM
Slap Shot, you forgot your favorite line in your earlier post:

Typical Sue Hockey

;) :D

I don't typically use, "Sue" in reference to UND although that's not to say it's never been done. ;) Besides, I didn't think my post had that type of tone anyway - I meant when I said good luck to the kid. :)

PCM - I think knowing he was going to be able to come back made it not a difficult thing in the least but it's not a major point of contention for me.

brianvf
12-31-2009, 03:40 PM
Besides, I didn't think my post had that type of tone anyway - I meant when I said good luck to the kid. :)

I know, I was just poking some fun. :cool:
Hope you have a good New Year! :)

ecbrevik
12-31-2009, 03:44 PM
Anyone else a little surprised by Frattin's mid-season return to UND hockey?
Yes, I am. I thought his return, if it happened, would come next year.

I would have preferred for Frattin to sit an entire year but I fully expect him to play the second half of this season for the Sioux. I can only hope he learned his lesson.
This pretty much mirrors my thoughts.

Losing half a season is still a pretty significant punishment. I was quite disappointed that, after the first arrest, Frattin was dumb enough to get in serious trouble again and so soon. As with Stack, I would have preferred to see him sit an entire season. It is obvious he will not, so I hope the punishment that was dealt was severe enough to teach him a lesson. If he improves his behavior as a result of this, at the end of the day the purpose of the punishment was achieved. If he screws up again, he should be off the team for good.

brianvf
12-31-2009, 06:05 PM
New BMT episode goes to the Blood/Mario/Fienhage crib:

http://www.areavoices.com/undhockey/

HarleyMC
12-31-2009, 06:13 PM
Anytime a player runs afoul of the law multiple times, I think the outside scrutiny becomes much more fair game because it's not just a team or a school matter anymore. It's a matter of public record, and hurts the school's reputation.

PS, IMHO you seem to be making an overly prodigious and parochial assessment regarding the incident. Time has shown that jeopardizing UND's reputation or any other college or university requires substantially more than speculating whether a player was prematurely reinstated after a several month suspension. Stating that this reflects negatively upon a university's reputation as a whole is pure reductionism.

Regarding Frattin's case, I tend to look at: 1) what are the periodic assessments of the progressive response levels of the disciplined player, 2) what are the regimented levels of leadership accountability imposed upon the disciplined player, 3) what kind of scrutiny and practical reporting relationship has the disciplined player been subjected to during the disciplinary procedure, and 4) what is the leadership's overall assessment of the player's substantive and longitudinal response to the disciplinary process over a predetermined timeframe.

In particular under point #4 above, in order to dispute it one would have to call into question and empirically demonstrate that the character of the leadership accountability structure that Matt Frattin was responsible to is untrustworthy and unreliable. I could be wrong, but I'm going to assume you don't want to go down that road to start pointing fingers and assassinate the character of UND leadership of whom you have absolutely no personal or administrative knowledge of nor detailed understanding of their disciplinary approach.


The greater question in my mind is one of standards, and how much we are willing to bend them in the name of second (third?) chances and winning hockey games.

To put it succinctly, it appears according to the record that he was suspended and responsible to trusted university leadership who were also responsible to formulate and document a realistic assessment regarding his progress and return. No other governing body was necessary, nor was there any stipulation regarding the duration of his suspension. My question to you is, what further validation do you need to be assured that they made the right decision?


In short, I think that wearing a Sioux jersey should be one of the greatest privileges in all of sports. It is a jersey that carries a long and proud tradition with it, and I think the school should be be reserving it for those players who choose to live their lives in an appropriate manner.

First you overly patronize with grandiose remarks regarding the UND athletic program and their longstanding hockey tradition (which does include leadership btw), then you decide what standards UND leadership should have and who is deserving of a jersey?:D Maybe you should fax UND your resume and ask them to give you a call?:rolleyes:


Allowing Frattin back into the fold, I think, sends the wrong message around the country. It says essentially that 'boys will be boys', and as long as you're sorry for what you did (and can help us win), there is a jersey waiting for you, even when you are arrested multiple times and one of them is a very serious adult offense (DUI) that comes after a prior arrest. Frattin may have done wonderous things since his arrests, but I think mid-season is too soon for a return, given the gravity of what we all know he did. Hak should have waited until next year at a minimum. I am not knocking the Sioux here - there are a lot of schools that migth have let him back- I just think they missed an opportunity to hold the program to a higher standard.

The whole country? That's absurd. "I am not knocking the Sioux here"? Really?:D


As for Denver's dirty laundry, it's simply not comparable - Knock on wood, but no active Pioneer hockey player has been ever been arrested or convicted of a crime while enrolled at Denver in Gwozdecky's tenure since 1994. That's not to say the DU players are all choir boys (I am sure they are not) but so far, when an active DU player gets into serious off-ice trouble, even when the police are not involved, the evidence we have is that they no longer get to wear the DU uniform (See Trotter, Brock).

Trotter is a very poor validation of what you are attempting to prove. Very little disclosure of Trotter's violations and reasons for his subsequent decisions to leave DU were provided to the public. So since the incident has been shrouded in mystery to this day, it is an argument from silence as an example of the ramifications of "serious off-ice trouble". Do you have any other examples?

Dirty
12-31-2009, 06:27 PM
New BMT episode goes to the Blood/Mario/Fienhage crib:

http://www.areavoices.com/undhockey/

I want a peacock feather couch.

brianvf
12-31-2009, 07:08 PM
I want a peacock feather couch.

I wonder if they forgot to flush the toilet or something and that's why Mario hustled them out of the bathroom rather quickly? :D

PCM
12-31-2009, 11:10 PM
PCM - I think knowing he was going to be able to come back made it not a difficult thing in the least but it's not a major point of contention for me.
How did he know that? If you watch the news conference (http://www.fightingsioux.com/newMediaPlayer/sl/console.htm?type=vod&DB_MENU_ID=&DB_OEM_ID=13500&oemid=13500&CLIP_FILE_ID=666459&id=666459&SPID=6405&SPSID=58684&CLIP_ID=656597) with Frattin and Hakstol, Frattin said he didn't know until a couple weeks ago that he would be able to return to UND and he didn't know until last Monday that he'd be able to play this season. Hakstol said it was never a given that he'd be able to return.

Unless you've been in a situation similar to Frattin's, you have no clue about how difficult it is.

MinnesotaNorthStar
01-01-2010, 12:31 AM
I'm happy that Happy is back. The Fighting Sioux Sheriff has made me beat my head against the wall once again. Whenever he posts I get a feeling in my stomach that I wish I was born in Minnesota. What a perfect place to be, the 494-694 loop is the only place in the state that cares about the "U".I live in the loop....and I don't care. :D


Come on, UND fans made a much bigger deal out of Frazee, who didn't get arrested multiple times.
Let's be fair now Happy...we didn't make a deal out of Frazee underage drinking so much as his choice of beverage...:D

That said, I didn't expect Frats back until next season....

brianvf
01-01-2010, 10:41 AM
2009 Herald Sportsperson of the Year:

Mark Kauk (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/146136/)

An article from 1998 on Kauker:

Kauk, Superfan (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/146125/)

dxmnkd316
01-01-2010, 05:19 PM
Man, it's been a while since I was on here last. Any update on Genoway? Still showing symptoms of the concussion? The only reason I'm asking is because the UMN/UND series just made it to the first page on my calendar on the phone.

Slap Shot
01-01-2010, 05:33 PM
PCM you can sugarcoat it all you want and despite what was said I don't believe for a second he stuck around for any reason other than to play again and there's nothing difficult about it. I will leave it at that.

MinnesotaNorthStar
01-01-2010, 09:13 PM
2009 Herald Sportsperson of the Year:

Mark Kauk (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/146136/)

An article from 1998 on Kauker:

Kauk, Superfan (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/146125/):D

lord k
01-01-2010, 09:37 PM
PCM you can sugarcoat it all you want and despite what was said I don't believe for a second he stuck around for any reason other than to play again and there's nothing difficult about it. I will leave it at that.

If it wasn't for hockey he wouldn't have ever been at UND in the first place. Of course he stuck around to play hockey. That's what he is here for. Same as almost all the hockey players on every team in the country.

Frattin needs to play. He has a legit shot at being a good NHL player. Without a couple of more years of college hockey he can pretty much cancel that dream.

brianvf
01-01-2010, 09:41 PM
PCM you can sugarcoat it all you want and despite what was said I don't believe for a second he stuck around for any reason other than to play again and there's nothing difficult about it. I will leave it at that.

He didn't stick around though...he went back home to Canada. Sounds like he had other offers as well, not sure if he could have left for the AHL/ECHL or something along those lines.


Man, it's been a while since I was on here last. Any update on Genoway? Still showing symptoms of the concussion? The only reason I'm asking is because the UMN/UND series just made it to the first page on my calendar on the phone.

Still no update on Genoway. He's listed as week-to-week. :(

PCM
01-01-2010, 10:08 PM
PCM you can sugarcoat it all you want and despite what was said I don't believe for a second he stuck around for any reason other than to play again and there's nothing difficult about it. I will leave it at that.
In what way did I sugarcoat anything? And Frattin didn't "stick around." I'm not even sure you understand the basic facts of the situation.

Slap Shot
01-01-2010, 10:51 PM
In what way did I sugarcoat anything? And Frattin didn't "stick around." I'm not even sure you understand the basic facts of the situation.

They're understood just fine, simmer down. Did he or did he not return to the team? Yes he did. Therefore if he had zero inkling that he'd be allowed back why did he not move on (brian himself said he had other offers and the good lord k made his intentions obvious) once he left campus? Regardless of all that let me repeat that none of my commentary is a slam on him or UND - good luck and more power to him. I'm simply saying let's not elevate his situation to something it was not.

PCM
01-02-2010, 10:00 AM
They're understood just fine, simmer down. Did he or did he not return to the team? Yes he did.
Of course he did. Am I disputing that? No. Did he "stick around" UND or Grand Forks or even the United States after he was kicked off the team? No, he didn't.

Therefore if he had zero inkling that he'd be allowed back why did he not move on (brian himself said he had other offers and the good lord k made his intentions obvious) once he left campus?
Because if you'd read what Hakstol said at the time Frattin was kicked off the team, the coach left open the possibility that Frattin could return at some point. My guess is that Hakstol spelled out the conditions under which that could happen. It was up to Frattin to satisfy those conditions.

The easiest thing Frattin could have done was run away from his problems at UND, join up with another team in Canada and continue leading the same life he'd led, free of the constraints that come with being an NCAA student athlete and away from the fishbowl that UND hockey players in Grand Forks live in.

Did he do that? No. He chose instead to take four months away from hockey to get his life in order and satisty the conditions that Hakstol set for his return. He chose to come back to UND and Grand Forks where everything he does on and off the ice will be viewed under under a microscope. He chose to return to come back and take responsibility for his actions, knowing that he'll very likely be held to a higher standard than other players.

Somehow, you think that's the "easy" course. That's ridiculous.

Slap Shot
01-02-2010, 01:18 PM
Because if you'd read what Hakstol said at the time Frattin was kicked off the team, the coach left open the possibility that Frattin could return at some point.

Thereby making it not a difficult decision at all.


Did he do that? No. He chose instead to....

...stick with the first choice he made all along - albeit with a slight detour. Big deal. Cripes, I'm not going to genuflect toward Cepis because he stuck around in school for a full year without being able to play any hockey. Now I realize your on-line persona will never, ever, ever give up on this so perhaps I should just bow having said what I've said - which is good luck to him but there's nothing special or remotely heroic about this situation.