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joecct
09-23-2009, 01:53 PM
From today's NCAA news...


In the amateurism area, the Council will vote on an Amateurism Cabinet-sponsored proposal that would amend rules for prospects who participate on a team with a teammate who receives more than actual and necessary expenses. Proposal No. 2009-22 would permit prospective student-athletes before collegiate enrollment to participate on professional teams without jeopardizing eligibility, provided they do not receive more than actual and necessary expenses. Issues related to competitive advantages gained by participating on such teams are addressed through an organized competition component, similar to the rule in Division II.
So if a PSA plays on a Major Junior A team and only received acutal and necessary expenses (housing, food, transportation, and laundry, for example), he would be good to go???????????

leswp1
09-23-2009, 01:55 PM
From today's NCAA news...

So if a PSA plays on a Major Junior A team and only received acutal and necessary expenses (housing, food, transportation, and laundry, for example), he would be good to go???????????

Were they channeling Swami?

Suze
09-23-2009, 02:09 PM
From today's NCAA news...

So if a PSA plays on a Major Junior A team and only received acutal and necessary expenses (housing, food, transportation, and laundry, for example), he would be good to go???????????

Sounds very subjective. :o

NCAA watcher
09-23-2009, 02:15 PM
Beautiful.


DI proposal addresses professionalism


Jun 29, 2009 9:21:29 AM


By Michelle Brutlag Hosick
The NCAA News


The Division I Amateurism Cabinet is sponsoring legislation to amend amateurism rules for prospects who participate on a team with a teammate who receives more than actual and necessary expenses.

The legislation also would require most student-athletes to enroll in an NCAA institution within a year of high school graduation without being subject to seasons-of-withholding conditions.

The rule targets what some have called “vicarious” or “collective” professionalism, a circumstance that renders prospects who participate on a team with a professional athlete a professional themselves, even if the prospect is not paid more than actual and necessary expenses for his or her services. Division II has dealt with similar issues because of its organized-competition rule.

The cabinet considered feedback from a number of coaches associations, most of which were supportive or indicated the change would not affect their sport. The cabinet sympathized with the prospects and coaches who have recruited prospects who are affected by the rule, and cabinet members want to hear membership comment on the proposed legislation.

Chair Mike Rogers, a law professor at Baylor, said he considers the rule unfair. He pointed out that legally, people are rarely liable for others’ actions. Relaxing the restrictions would also fit with the Association’s movement toward a student-athlete well-being focus, he said.

The NCAA Eligibility Center also supported the legislation because it would simplify the rules and focus the analysis on the individual recruit and not teammates.

The proposal also would give prospects a “grace period” to participate in organized competition without being subject to withholdings. If the prospect does not enroll and participates in organized athletics activities after that grace period ends, he or she would be required to sit out of competition for a year for an “academic year in residence.” At the request of the tennis community, the period was designated as six months.

If adopted, the legislation will be effective August 1, 2010.

Puck Swami
09-23-2009, 02:25 PM
:cool:

I guess this comes down to semantics and the devil is in the details- currently, all Major Junior players officially receive a "stipend" of a a few hundred bucks a month over and above their room, board and meals, which are covered by a "billet" arangement between the team and the host family. That stipend is really to cover incidentals, etc. Don't know if that would be considered "actual and necessary" or not. Seems like lots of wiggle room in the language.

Of course, a few selected MJ players also receive more more money from contracts/bonuses from the MJ team or the NHL team that owns their rights, but the vast majority of MJ players only get the stipend...

MaizeRage
09-23-2009, 02:31 PM
Sounds very subjective. :o

In theory, it's no different than any other Tier II Jr. A league or USHL where players don't have to pay-to-play.

In practice....

Anybody know if signing a contract that promises 4 years of schooling counts as "actual and necessary"? CHL teams can give out those like candy because nobody ever comes back to collect on it. And that's just the above-the-table stuff. We could have a golden age on this message board with all the potential "My team shouldn't have lost because your player took $100,000 back when he was 16 and you're a bunch of cheaters" whining and flaming.

Patman
09-23-2009, 02:32 PM
uh... and what about that whole "one year of graduation bit"? That also seems like a major change.

NCAA watcher
09-23-2009, 02:36 PM
I guess this comes down to semantics and the devil is in the details- currently, all Major Junior players officially receive a "stipend" of a a few hundred bucks a month over and above their room, board and meals, which are covered by a "billet" arangement between the team and the host family. That stipend is really to cover incidentals, etc. Don't know if that would be considered "actual and necessary" or not. Seems like lots of wiggle room in the language.


Probably on the same level as the Junior A stipends, which, hush hush, also are payments a wee bit above necessary.

Dick Decloe says its all right.

Puck Swami
09-23-2009, 02:37 PM
uh... and what about that whole "one year of graduation bit"? That also seems like a major change.

Interesting. Wonder if hockey is considered as an exception to the "most" student athletes....

I would think that College Hockey people would have long been aware of these potential "changes"....

Puck Swami
09-23-2009, 02:39 PM
Probably on the same level as the Junior A stipends, which, hush hush, also are payments a wee bit above necessary.

Dick Decloe says its all right.

:eek: :D :eek: :cool:

Ralph Baer
09-23-2009, 02:48 PM
Most interesting. Too bad that this didn't show up earlier in the off season. It would have kept thigns more lively during the summer.

Re Dick DeCloe. Without him, I wonder what Jack Pahker would be doing now.

The Exiled One
09-23-2009, 03:02 PM
In theory, it's no different than any other Tier II Jr. A league or USHL where players don't have to pay-to-play.

In practice....

Anybody know if signing a contract that promises 4 years of schooling counts as "actual and necessary"? CHL teams can give out those like candy because nobody ever comes back to collect on it. And that's just the above-the-table stuff. We could have a golden age on this message board with all the potential "My team shouldn't have lost because your player took $100,000 back when he was 16 and you're a bunch of cheaters" whining and flaming.
I would imagine you'd have to refuse the stipend, the education package, and the signing bonus... which you would do only if you had a college scholarship offer in hand already. I doubt any 17 year old would refuse all of those things so he could retain NCAA eligibility while patiently waiting for an American college to come knocking at his door.

NCAA watcher
09-23-2009, 03:14 PM
Re Dick DeCloe. Without him, I wonder what Jack Pahker would be doing now.

Actually, Decloe was the 1972 precurser. The final straw for Abbott was 1973's Peter Buckton and Peter Marzo and his "activities directed toward evasion of NCAA and ECAC eligibility rules relative to foreign hockey players."

http://select.nytimes.com/mem/archive/pdf?res=F20911FA345F107A93C2AA1789D95F478785F9

Ralph Baer
09-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Actually, Decloe was the 1972 precurser. The final straw for Abbott was 1973's Peter Buckton and Peter Marzo and his "activities directed toward evasion of NCAA and ECAC eligibility rules relative to foreign hockey players."

http://select.nytimes.com/mem/archive/pdf?res=F20911FA345F107A93C2AA1789D95F478785F9

My memory is faulty. :o FWIW, I knew Dick's brother Jack Decloe (RPI '72) who was in a calc course that I taught his freshman year 68-69 while I was a grad student. He also played for Abbott.

jnacc
09-23-2009, 06:37 PM
This is long over due. The vast majority of CHL players receive a $50 dollar a week stipend to cover incidentals and not much else. To call them professional makes the NCAA very hypocritical, especially when one realizes the majority of tier II players receive the same type of stipends.

The NCAA then tries to claim that all CHL players are professionals since they play on the same team with NHL prospects that signed with NHL teams yet once again looks the other way when World Junior teams are formed that mixes so called "amateur" college players with "professional" CHL players.

Hardcore status quo fans like Happy will rail against this decision but the reality is that the NCAA is often losing the recruiting wars with the CHL......and as the ole saying goes, if you can't beat em then just join em.

Alton
09-23-2009, 07:56 PM
The NCAA Amateurism Cabinet said this: "The cabinet discussed the definition of a professional team and how one may become ineligible based on benefits received by a teammate as well as issues related to competition without professionals. The cabinet was in agreement that changes to this legislation were warrented. Specifically, the cabinet believes that the current definition of a professional team is too broad and unfairly penalizes prospective student-athletes who never intended to professionalize themselves (e.g. never received more than actual and necessary expenses) and for whom sports has been an avocation."

So it certainly sounds like they are talking about Major Junior players here. It will be interesting to see if this is adopted; I am sure there will be some opposition.


The NCAA then tries to claim that all CHL players are professionals since they play on the same team with NHL prospects that signed with NHL teams yet once again looks the other way when World Junior teams are formed that mixes so called "amateur" college players with "professional" CHL players.

To be fair, they don't "look the other way," they have a specific exemption in the cases of olympic teams, national teams and national junior teams that allows college athletes to compete alongside professional athletes without becoming "infected" by their teammates' professional status.

jnacc
09-23-2009, 08:09 PM
To be fair, they don't "look the other way," they have a specific exemption in the cases of olympic teams, national teams and national junior teams that allows college athletes to compete alongside professional athletes without becoming "infected" by their teammates' professional status.

Gee, how convenient. Lets make an exemption so we can fool people into believing we are not really hypocrites. I'm sure the NCAA really believes that their "exemptions" prevent their players from becoming "infected" with the dreaded professional virus.

Alton
09-23-2009, 08:15 PM
Again--be fair here.

Playing on a team (that "owns your rights" in a league) for a full season is a little different than playing on an all-star national team for 2 or 3 weeks.

The other issue--the one of being "infected" by the professionalism of your teammates or your opponents--is the one that the NCAA is currently re-considering.

NCAA watcher
09-23-2009, 08:29 PM
Remember this arose in 1980, after the NHL changed its draft in 1979 to allow underage kids to be drafted. After that, drafted players returned to major junior, causing the NCAA to declare all of major junior off limits.

If you go through the 1979-80 major junior rosters, you'll find tons of NCAA all-americans.

Gary Haight, Paul Pooley, Greg Scott, Bill Terry, Dave Kobryn, Peter Wilson, Shane Kuklowicz

Flashy Man
09-23-2009, 10:40 PM
Remember this arose in 1980, after the NHL changed its draft in 1979 to allow underage kids to be drafted. After that, drafted players returned to major junior, causing the NCAA to declare all of major junior off limits.

If you go through the 1979-80 major junior rosters, you'll find tons of NCAA all-americans.

Gary Haight, Paul Pooley, Greg Scott, Bill Terry, Dave Kobryn, Peter Wilson, Shane Kuklowicz

I only found one player from Tech that played in the 1978-79 season that played on a Major Junior team the next season.