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First Time, Long Time
07-09-2019, 08:43 PM
Who is delusional when my scenario is only one team changes conferences (to balance them after losing the AK teams) different than pre-Nacho and you have two "eastern" teams playing in the "west" two "western" teams playing in the "east" for 8 years when there was no reason for them to have to do so? So yes, the Nacho caused a lot more change to the college hockey landscape than was necessary. And I would argue that the changes caused by Nacho were more detrimental to college hockey as a whole than if they just stayed status quo after the B1G formed.

So we agree the Alaska schools likely die anyway and neither league would have taken UAH.
How is what you constructed so much better that you can claim the NCHC was so detrimental?
Facts would be nice...not just your belief.

MTUHuskies
07-09-2019, 08:50 PM
So we agree the Alaska schools likely die anyway and neither league would have taken UAH.
How is what you constructed so much better that you can claim the NCHC was so detrimental?
Facts would be nice...not just your belief.Follow the bouncing ball through the thread. I've said all along that these are my opinions. But if you want me to back them up with facts, I'm sure I could waste a lot of time tracking down data that I could present in just a way to support my opinions, as could you.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Fishman'81
07-09-2019, 10:56 PM
There is such a thing as loyalty. It's rare but it is out there. And some people do value it more than money.

i can't remember an even *remotely* recent example of that happening in any NCAA program that had/has a shot of making a buck.

I feel bad for the Alaskan teams, but it had to happen. (It's easier to get to London than it is to either of them for all of Hockey East and the ECAC, for example.)

Just not a practical situation for the cottage-industry that is college hockey, IMO.

DrunkTrainPolka
07-10-2019, 08:51 AM
here...

idea not considering the AZ and AK schools;

bring UAH back to make it the magnificent 8... call the new conference TAHA (tornado alley hockey association)

create two regions/divisions;

Cone Tornado - "When people think of a tornado rolling across the Plains in the central United States, a cone tornado is often what comes to mind."
Wedge Tornado - "Some of the largest and most destructive tornadoes in history fall in the category of a wedge tornado."

Cone Division; MNSU/BSU/MTU/NMU
Wedge Division; LSSU/FSU/BGSU/UAH

pair them up for local rivalries;

MNSU/BSU
MTU/NMU
LSSU/FSU
BGSU/UAH

have teams play four series against their rival, two series against their two other region/division teams, and one series against all teams in the other region/division.

that would make a 4-2-2-1-1-1-1 series schedule; 24 conference games. all teams make the play-offs, seeing by overall record (and maybe against another region team).

[too many games against your rival? make it 2-2-2 / 2-2-1-1 -or- 3-3-3 / 1-1-1-0 -or- 3-3-2 / 1-1-1-1. or go with 3-3-3 / 1-1-1-1 for 26 games.]

leaving you with 10 games to be had against NC teams.

in the case of tech, you play the GLI, so that leaves four series.

for starters, play UMD, SCSU, UMN, and UWI - two NACHO and two B1G.

i would be a happy camper; reduces travel, cost, opens schedule for more NC games, and increases local rivalries.

you are welcome.

GO TECH GOLD!

ThePowerConference
07-10-2019, 09:21 AM
My bubble isn't burst. My only point is that the status quo would have worked well after the B1G exodus.

Fast forward to 2019 and this scenario if Nacho didn't exist: The AK teams have the money rug pulled out from under them and have to shut down, leaving the WCHA with nine teams and CCHA with seven. Logic (admittedly absent in college hockey since 2011) dictates one WCHA team migrates to the CCHA for two 8-team leagues. My guess would be Tech so they could join NMU and Lake State as well as the rest in the EST zone.
WCHA: CC, DU, UND, BSU, SCSU, UMD, MSU & UNO

CCHA: MTU, NMU, LSSU, FSU, WMU, ND, MU & BGSU

Still two very viable leagues, IMHO.

I realize this scenario does not address UAH but I doubt they would have been added to either league without the Nacho.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I would actually like to see Mankato and Bemidji swapped for Miami and WMU because it makes so much more sense from a geographical standpoint. There's just one problem with that: I highly doubt Miami or WMU would agree to this. They're already in the best conference and no program would voluntarily leave that for a lesser one. That, plus if Bemidji was in the NCHC they'd get their clock cleaned every night.

altazo
07-10-2019, 09:22 AM
Eight regular season games against the same opponent? Basically 1/4 of your schedule against the same team? You may be onto something, and it could save the Alaska schools - they could start a 3 team conference with ASU and all play each other 16 times in the regular season.

aparch
07-10-2019, 09:37 AM
...I highly doubt Miami or WMU would agree to this. They're already in the best conference and no program would voluntarily leave that for a lesser one. ...
And I believe the "penalty" for asking out of the conference is quite sizable, so unless MSU-M and BSU want to pay the entry fee *and* partial/full buyout of WMU/Miami, it ain't happening.

MTUHuskies
07-10-2019, 09:48 AM
And I believe the "penalty" for asking out of the conference is quite sizable, so unless MSU-M and BSU want to pay the entry fee *and* partial/full buyout of WMU/Miami, it ain't happening.

I wasn't suggesting MSU and BSU swap with WMU and Miami. At the start I mentioned it as scenario that could have been if the Nacho was not formed in the first place. IMHO, college hockey as a whole would have been better served under that scenario.

SJHovey
07-10-2019, 09:51 AM
I would actually like to see Mankato and Bemidji swapped for Miami and WMU because it makes so much more sense from a geographical standpoint. There's just one problem with that: I highly doubt Miami or WMU would agree to this. They're already in the best conference and no program would voluntarily leave that for a lesser one. That, plus if Bemidji was in the NCHC they'd get their clock cleaned every night.

It's for these reasons I think it's more likely that WMU and Miami stay with the NCHC, but I don't think making that switch would be as big a deal, or as far-fetched, as some may make it out to be.

First, changing the buy-out could be made if the other six NCHC teams agreed, and they would probably do that just for travel reasons alone. It's not like trying to change the US Constitution or something.

Second, while WMU and Miami can claim a home in what is currently the top conference, they haven't exactly thrived in that conference, and conference success can be cyclical. WMU has had some recent success and Miami won the tournament a couple of years ago, but more often than not they've finished in the second division of the conference and it hasn't resulted in consistent appearances in the NCAA tournament. They might look at the newly formed CCHA/WCHA or whatever they'll call themselves and see their program as the Mankato program, always at or near the top and consistently appearing in the NCAA tournament.

ticapnews
07-10-2019, 10:28 AM
i can't remember an even *remotely* recent example of that happening in any NCAA program that had/has a shot of making a buck.


Part of that is because those stories don't play in the media. There has long been a divide between the public and private schools in Hockey East. With the rare exception of one of the UMass teams doing well the state schools inevitably finish in the lower half of the league while the private schools (except Merrimack) compete for Hockey East championships and NCAA tournament appearances.

The private schools could take a few "like minded" members of the ECAC and leave the state schools behind. It would be financially beneficial to to do so. After what happened to the Big East (which BC helped found) and the NCHC I thought this was where we were headed. Three different people told me that wouldn't happen because BC (and particularly Jerry York) was committed to making Hockey East work.

Sure sounds like he places a higher value on loyalty than money. But he's just a Hall of Famer so he probably isn't much of an example.

TalonsUpPuckDown
07-10-2019, 10:32 AM
It's for these reasons I think it's more likely that WMU and Miami stay with the NCHC, but I don't think making that switch would be as big a deal, or as far-fetched, as some may make it out to be.

First, changing the buy-out could be made if the other six NCHC teams agreed, and they would probably do that just for travel reasons alone. It's not like trying to change the US Constitution or something.

Second, while WMU and Miami can claim a home in what is currently the top conference, they haven't exactly thrived in that conference, and conference success can be cyclical. WMU has had some recent success and Miami won the tournament a couple of years ago, but more often than not they've finished in the second division of the conference and it hasn't resulted in consistent appearances in the NCAA tournament. They might look at the newly formed CCHA/WCHA or whatever they'll call themselves and see their program as the Mankato program, always at or near the top and consistently appearing in the NCAA tournament.

I agree with this. Here's what this might look like from the NCHC perspective:

1) For the past 3-4 years, Mankato has out-PWR'ed Western and Bemidji has out-PWR'ed Miami State. Result is at worst even up for the Nachos with Mankato providing some upside.
2) Western and Miami State contribute zilch to the Frozen Faceoff revenue stream and that's never going to change. Replacing WMU/MU with 2 more Minnesota schools is a clear win for the Nachos here.
3) With a geographic footprint consolidation travel costs for the remaining members are reduced. Seems like a wash for DU/CC as travel to Bemidji is as bad as travel to K'zoo though it's a net win for everyone else.

If I'm Fenton, why wouldn't I at least consider letting WMU and Miami State out for reduced/zero exit fees? Seems like I'd be better off.

gfmorris
07-10-2019, 11:00 AM
here...

idea not considering the AZ and AK schools;

bring UAH back to make it the magnificent 8... call the new conference TAHA (tornado alley hockey association)

create two regions/divisions;

Cone Tornado - "When people think of a tornado rolling across the Plains in the central United States, a cone tornado is often what comes to mind."
Wedge Tornado - "Some of the largest and most destructive tornadoes in history fall in the category of a wedge tornado."

Cone Division; MNSU/BSU/MTU/NMU
Wedge Division; LSSU/FSU/BGSU/UAH

pair them up for local rivalries;

MNSU/BSU
MTU/NMU
LSSU/FSU
BGSU/UAH

have teams play four series against their rival, two series against their two other region/division teams, and one series against all teams in the other region/division.

that would make a 4-2-2-1-1-1-1 series schedule; 24 conference games. all teams make the play-offs, seeing by overall record (and maybe against another region team).

[too many games against your rival? make it 2-2-2 / 2-2-1-1 -or- 3-3-3 / 1-1-1-0 -or- 3-3-2 / 1-1-1-1]

leaving you with 10 games to be had against NC teams.

in the case of tech, you play the GLI, so that leaves four series.

for starters, play UMD, SCSU, UMN, and UWI - two NACHO and two B1G.

i would be a happy camper; reduces travel, cost, opens schedule for more NC games, and increases local rivalries.

you are welcome.

GO TECH GOLD!

Well, UAH has a fantastic atmospheric science program, and we're a huge-*** target for tornadoes, so ...

It's nice to see this discussion be about what could and should happen and not lots of blathering about what could or should have been done seven years ago. Give it a rest. We have three programs here that are on their death beds, and ...

Never mind, I forgot that I'm on the Internet.

GFM

ExileOnDaytonStreet
07-10-2019, 11:03 AM
People are too busy blaming PSU hockey and the BTHC for problems that existed before either of those entities existed.

I feel like if we were going to be ****ed at PSU for things that we discovered in 2011, there are far more important things for us to be upset about.

ExileOnDaytonStreet
07-10-2019, 11:09 AM
nWCHA schools were struggling competitively and financially before realignment. UAA and MTU were cellar dwellers. BGSU almost folded.

nWCHA has higher travel costs than the old WCHA/CCHA alignment, and thatís a fair critique of what happened. Especially with the Alaska schools together.

But gfm is onto something here: endless whining about the WCHA/CCHA to B1G/NCHC/nWCHA shift is pointless. What can be done to fix what actually exists?

Numbers
07-10-2019, 11:49 AM
What can be done to fix what exists?

Well, we think the Alaska schools are going to have their budgets completely slashed. The only way to fix that is to contribute a lot of money. That's a sad situation, of course, but it seems to be the reality of it.

Huntsville....The problem seems to be that, on the surface, it costs too much to travel there. I'm not really sure that is the case, but some here have indicated that getting to Huntsville is difficult at best. It seems that the program itself is solvent. It also seems, therefore, that cutting travel costs for some schools to get there is the thing which needs to be done.

How do you do that?

I don't know. Ideas?

aparch
07-10-2019, 11:51 AM
What can be done to fix what exists?
...
Ideas?

Every WCHA school (including Womens) has to chip in $100 every week for the next two years for Powerball tickets...

Split-N
07-10-2019, 12:08 PM
...Huntsville....The problem seems to be that, on the surface, it costs too much to travel there. I'm not really sure that is the case, but some here have indicated that getting to Huntsville is difficult at best. It seems that the program itself is solvent. It also seems, therefore, that cutting travel costs for some schools to get there is the thing which needs to be done...How do you do that?...I don't know...

Absurdly high travel costs to get into and out of Huntsville is a fact. I've had to coordinate some events that had to be held in Huntsville for one reason or another and travel costs were a budget-buster every time. I can only imagine the financial hit on programs that have no choice but to fly for games at Huntsville.

It's a shame since Huntsville has a long been a youth hockey outpost. But unless more airlines come in and more frequent flights are offered, which presumably would drive down prices, the expense problem will remain.

Lost_Husky
07-10-2019, 12:17 PM
I agree with this. Here's what this might look like from the NCHC perspective:

1) For the past 3-4 years, Mankato has out-PWR'ed Western and Bemidji has out-PWR'ed Miami State. Result is at worst even up for the Nachos with Mankato providing some upside.
2) Western and Miami State contribute zilch to the Frozen Faceoff revenue stream and that's never going to change. Replacing WMU/MU with 2 more Minnesota schools is a clear win for the Nachos here.
3) With a geographic footprint consolidation travel costs for the remaining members are reduced. Seems like a wash for DU/CC as travel to Bemidji is as bad as travel to K'zoo though it's a net win for everyone else.

If I'm Fenton, why wouldn't I at least consider letting WMU and Miami State out for reduced/zero exit fees? Seems like I'd be better off.

WMU has value to the Nachos as Michigan is a decent/good recruiting base.

there isn't much value for Miami being in the Nacho. Outside of Miami and the random Blue Jacket's fan, very few in SW Ohio knows hockey exists. The value they might add is a rival for WMU and nice barn.

gfmorris
07-10-2019, 12:31 PM
Absurdly high travel costs to get into and out of Huntsville is a fact. I've had to coordinate some events that had to be held in Huntsville for one reason or another and travel costs were a budget-buster every time. I can only imagine the financial hit on programs that have no choice but to fly for games at Huntsville.

I don't think that anyone flies here for reasons I've already stated.

GFM

ExileOnDaytonStreet
07-10-2019, 12:37 PM
Itís hard to envision paths forward for UAH that donít involve either:

A- Asking existing schools to be fine with long and/or expensive trips to Alabama, or

B- Other hockey programs appearing from nothingness in the South.