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  • Ahc > wcha

    It's a legit question. They seem pretty adept at winning tournament games, and clearly do not.

    Tech/SCSU was a valiant effort ****ed by the refs + a brutal broken stick.
    Tech/ND was a broken stick that hurt me real bad
    BGSU/UMD took a greasy goal, but it happened

    Mankato... Well they just keep doing Mankato things.

    Meanwhile 16s get upsets. Those easy wins. Obviously it's not as big of a gap in regionals as the shooty hoops, but it is interesting to compare and contrast their success.

    Edit to add: Tech nerd through and through. Hard to watch the WCHA continuously fail like they do
    Last edited by Crocodile Tears; 03-30-2019, 06:39 PM.
    In Mel We Trust(ed)

  • #2
    Re: Ahc > wcha

    Originally posted by Crocodile Tears View Post
    Hard to watch the WCHA continuously fail like they do

    Amen to that.
    "I find that the most trouble encountered with quotes on the internet is figuring out their authenticity"
    -Abraham Lincoln

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ahc > wcha

      Mankato whiffed two years in a row, there’s no doubt about that. However, BG had the defending national champs in to overtime...coulda woulda shoulda but they were one shot away from advancing. Tech was right on the doorstep a year ago, too.

      Reality of it is, anything can happen in these one-off games. Just ask St. Cloud. I loved watching AIC win that game, but the reality is if those teams played 10 times, SCSU probably wins 8 or 9. AIC’s goalie also stood on his head both of those games against SCSU and Denver.

      If the WCHA was getting trucked in these NCAA games I’d be more worried, but for the most part we’ve been right there, just snakebit. The conference needs to focus on getting better top to bottom and getting away from this have/have-not situation that we’ve had in the standings for the last few years.
      “We offer no apology for our location at 64 51’21’’ north latitude. We are building for the future and we are confident that well directed effort and education are the forces which make progress possible”

      —UA President Charles E. Bunnell, 1925

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ahc > wcha

        The WCHA hasn't been a complete failure. So far Ferris State has been their best dancer. They've made the second round twice, and took North Dakota to double OT.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ahc > wcha

          Originally posted by Squarebanks View Post
          Mankato whiffed two years in a row, there’s no doubt about that. However, BG had the defending national champs in to overtime...coulda woulda shoulda but they were one shot away from advancing. Tech was right on the doorstep a year ago, too.

          Reality of it is, anything can happen in these one-off games. Just ask St. Cloud. I loved watching AIC win that game, but the reality is if those teams played 10 times, SCSU probably wins 8 or 9. AIC’s goalie also stood on his head both of those games against SCSU and Denver.

          If the WCHA was getting trucked in these NCAA games I’d be more worried, but for the most part we’ve been right there, just snakebit. The conference needs to focus on getting better top to bottom and getting away from this have/have-not situation that we’ve had in the standings for the last few years.
          Been sorta following AIC the last few years...and yes. What they did this year was holy crap. Total Cinderella run.
          Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
          Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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          • #6
            Re: Ahc > wcha

            This is silly. Mankato went, what, 30-7 this year before running into a really good Providence team that underachieved a bit in the regular season and were a seed line or two (or three) below where they should’ve been based on talent. AIC is a great story and that conference has had some really great upsets lately, but Mankato has earned multiple 1 seeds in the tournament in recent years as well as a couple of at large bids. The AHA has never had a realistic shot at an at large berth.

            It’s a short tournament. Flukes happen.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ahc > wcha

              I don't get the point. Is the WCHA supposed to pack it in because other conferences have had more success? When all the conference re-alignment crap took place, the WCHA was left with a group of small market teams that were shoved to the side by all the elite schools. Given the situation, I think the WCHA has done fine. Anybody can see that other conferences will have more success than the the WCHA, heck, that was the whole point of the re-alignment, wasn't it?
              “They are a **** site better than the U.S. Army, at least we know that they will be there in the morning.”
              – Lewis B. Chesty Puller
              when a journalist asked him about being surrounded by 22. enemy divisions

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ahc > wcha

                Originally posted by kdiff77 View Post
                This is silly. Mankato went, what, 30-7 this year before running into a really good Providence team that underachieved a bit in the regular season and were a seed line or two (or three) below where they should’ve been based on talent. AIC is a great story and that conference has had some really great upsets lately, but Mankato has earned multiple 1 seeds in the tournament in recent years as well as a couple of at large bids. The AHA has never had a realistic shot at an at large berth.

                It’s a short tournament. Flukes happen.
                First, to take care of the factual errors in your post. Atlantic Hockey has not only had a realistic shot at an at large bid, they've received one when Niagara failed to win the conference tournament in 2013 yet received a 3 seed in that year's NCAA tournament. Air Force's 2017 squad just two tournaments ago was also seeded 3rd and likely would have received an at large bid had they lost the conference's championship game (this despite the fact that they did not even win that year's regular season title in Atlantic Hockey, which is a testament to how much the AHA's teams beat up on each other). In fact, in 2017 the WCHA winner was the 16th overall seed (27th in pairwise) while Air Force was ranked 12th in pairwise. The 2017 season is also the only season in the past 3 where the 16 overall seed did not topple the top seed.

                Secondly, it's not nearly as silly as you claim. There's a legitimate question to be asked here. A conference's strength is not just measured by the teams at the top, it's also measured by the team's in the middle and the bottom of the conference, and the latter is where Atlantic Hockey has made significant strides over the last few seasons, while certain teams in the WCHA seem to be hurting from the after effects of the realignment that happened a few years ago. Right now, I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that the bottom of Atlantic Hockey is better than the bottom of the WCHA. And while yes, it's almost certainly true that Minnesota State is better than the top of Atlantic Hockey (NCAA failures notwithstanding, including, I might add, a loss to RIT), their overall record is also benefited from having to play teams like Alabama-Huntsville and Alaska twice a year each. Meanwhile, the team that finished in last place in the AHA this year swept North Dakota (one of the few times a big program has agreed to visit an AHA team's home barn for two).

                The two conferences H2H records are fairly close over the last 3 seasons, with the AHA actually holding a 10-8-2 advantage, and the overall non-conference records are fairly similar over those 3 years combined:
                AHA: 51-125-23 (.314)
                WCHA: 56-122-17 (.331)

                When you add in playoff games into those records, the records get even closer (the AHA is 3-3-0 over the past 3 years, while WCHA is 0-5-0), and the last matchup in the tournament between the conferences was the aforementioned RIT upset of Minnesota State.

                TL;DR version: Yes, the top of the WCHA is almost certainly better than the top of Atlantic Hockey. But I see no evidence that as a whole conference that the WCHA is any better than Atlantic Hockey, and the AHA is clearly stronger at the bottom of the league now that teams that have long been cellar dwellers (*cough* *cough* AIC) have made a renewed commitment to their hockey program.
                Last edited by jflory81; 04-01-2019, 10:49 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Ahc > wcha

                  Since the realignment (2014 tournament onwards):

                  Total Apps 1s FFs NCs W L % Conference
                  6 0 0 0 4 6 40.0% AHA
                  21 4 6 1 22 18 55.0% HE
                  19 4 3 1 11 18 37.9% ECAC
                  10 2 0 0 2 10 16.7% WCHA
                  16 5 5 0 15 16 48.4% B1G
                  23 9 10 3 33 18 64.7% NCHC
                  1 0 0 0 0 1 0.0% Ind
                  If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                  BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                  At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                  Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ahc > wcha

                    Two one seeds, four more at large bids, and waaaaaaaay fewer wins.

                    This argument has some merit. It’s been pretty close for regular season Inter-conference records between the two conferences since the conference shakeup as well. (WCHA was 9-0-1 in the first seasons, it’s been close since).

                    WCHA is definitely a better conference overall (by overall Intra-Conference regular season records), though, so the at-large bids for the WCHA and none for the AHA are justified.
                    If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                    BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                    At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                    Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ahc > wcha

                      Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                      Two one seeds, four more at large bids, and waaaaaaaay fewer wins.

                      This argument has some merit. It’s been pretty close for regular season Inter-conference records between the two conferences since the conference shakeup as well. (WCHA was 9-0-1 in the first seasons, it’s been close since).

                      WCHA is definitely a better conference overall (by overall Intra-Conference regular season records), though, so the at-large bids for the WCHA and none for the AHA are justified.
                      The OOC gap is signficantly closing in recent seasons, as I pointed out above. In fact, if you include post-season play over the past 3 years, the inter-conference winning %'s are almost identical (.319 to .322). I think some of the schools that ended up in the WCHA has been significantly hurt from not being affiliated with the bigger Western schools and that has contributed to the squishy middle and bottom of the league. Combine that with the bottom of the AHA getting significantly better (although the OOC record took a step back this year), and the gap between the conferences overall strength (not just the top) is without a doubt closing, if not closed already. You could argue the increased competitiveness night in and night out prepares Atlantic Hockey teams for the tournament better than the extremely top-heavy WCHA does, resulting in the AHA upsets and WCHA playoff failures we've seen in the past few years.
                      Last edited by jflory81; 04-01-2019, 05:10 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Ahc > wcha

                        Ah yes, the "How do you measure your conference 'members' relative to the 'members' of other conferences" discussion. Can we save time and carpal tunnel by referring everyone to this incredibly conclusive thread?

                        Big Ten > NCHC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                          Since the realignment (2014 tournament onwards):

                          Total Apps 1s FFs NCs W L % Conference
                          6 0 0 0 4 6 40.0% AHA
                          21 4 6 1 22 18 55.0% HE
                          19 4 3 1 11 18 37.9% ECAC
                          10 2 0 0 2 10 16.7% WCHA
                          16 5 5 0 15 16 48.4% B1G
                          23 9 10 3 33 18 64.7% NCHC
                          1 0 0 0 0 1 0.0% Ind
                          I believe the B1G has only had 4 Frozen Four appearances. Minnesota in 2014, and then the triumvirate last year. Notre Dame in 2017 was in Hockey East, correct?
                          North Dakota
                          National Champions: 1959, 1963, 1980, 1982, 1987, 1997, 2000, 2016

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ahc > wcha

                            Correct, I was pulling from “current” conference alignment for that table.

                            Since ND To B1G was the only change since realignment, just take 3 appearances, a FF, two wins, and three losses from the B1G ledger and add it to the HE one.
                            If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                            BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                            At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                            Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jflory81 View Post
                              First, to take care of the factual errors in your post. Atlantic Hockey has not only had a realistic shot at an at large bid, they've received one when Niagara failed to win the conference tournament in 2013 yet received a 3 seed in that year's NCAA tournament. Air Force's 2017 squad just two tournaments ago was also seeded 3rd and likely would have received an at large bid had they lost the conference's championship game (this despite the fact that they did not even win that year's regular season title in Atlantic Hockey, which is a testament to how much the AHA's teams beat up on each other). In fact, in 2017 the WCHA winner was the 16th overall seed (27th in pairwise) while Air Force was ranked 12th in pairwise. The 2017 season is also the only season in the past 3 where the 16 overall seed did not topple the top seed.

                              Secondly, it's not nearly as silly as you claim. There's a legitimate question to be asked here. A conference's strength is not just measured by the teams at the top, it's also measured by the team's in the middle and the bottom of the conference, and the latter is where Atlantic Hockey has made significant strides over the last few seasons, while certain teams in the WCHA seem to be hurting from the after effects of the realignment that happened a few years ago. Right now, I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that the bottom of Atlantic Hockey is better than the bottom of the WCHA. And while yes, it's almost certainly true that Minnesota State is better than the top of Atlantic Hockey (NCAA failures notwithstanding, including, I might add, a loss to RIT), their overall record is also benefited from having to play teams like Alabama-Huntsville and Alaska twice a year each. Meanwhile, the team that finished in last place in the AHA this year swept North Dakota (one of the few times a big program has agreed to visit an AHA team's home barn for two).

                              The two conferences H2H records are fairly close over the last 3 seasons, with the AHA actually holding a 10-8-2 advantage, and the overall non-conference records are fairly similar over those 3 years combined:
                              AHA: 51-125-23 (.314)
                              WCHA: 56-122-17 (.331)

                              When you add in playoff games into those records, the records get even closer (the AHA is 3-3-0 over the past 3 years, while WCHA is 0-5-0), and the last matchup in the tournament between the conferences was the aforementioned RIT upset of Minnesota State.

                              TL;DR version: Yes, the top of the WCHA is almost certainly better than the top of Atlantic Hockey. But I see no evidence that as a whole conference that the WCHA is any better than Atlantic Hockey, and the AHA is clearly stronger at the bottom of the league now that teams that have long been cellar dwellers (*cough* *cough* AIC) have made a renewed commitment to their hockey program.
                              To distill your argument into a sentence, you’re basically saying that because the bad teams in the AHA might be slightly better than the bad teams in the WCHA, it’s a better conference? I don’t agree. You can’t ignore Mankato’s success, as much as it doesn’t fit your narrative. I’ll happily concede that they’re the only top-tier program in that conference, but because of that, they help elevate the conference as a whole. BGSU’s success this year and Tech’s and Northern’s occasional forays into the top-20 over the past few years are further support.

                              I have no dog in this fight; I’m an ECAC fan. But I will continue to think it’s silly to try to equate the AHA with the WCHA on the basis of fluky NCAA tournament wins.

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