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CLS
04-07-2019, 10:26 AM
Gee, pgb, I really wanted to stay out of this argument this year. But I at least want to take issue with what I think is a mischaracterization of the rationale for “neutral” sites. You state:


our neutral site regionals were created with one very specific goal in mind. Eliminate scenarios where one team's fanbase has the ability to take over the venue, and "carry" it's team to victory.

To my knowledge, there has never been “one very specific” goal stated. The “very specific goal” that I think the current system achieves is much more modest.

No team should host in their home rink.

If the opportunity to host in their home rink is not earned that’s far, far, worse, but in my view it’s the home rink per se that should be avoided.

Kepler
04-07-2019, 10:36 AM
Hosting takes effort and commitment and thus, a reward.

So if the Democrats put up the money for the polling places in 2020 you're good with giving them a 5% bonus in the vote totals?

Good to know.

MTUHuskies
04-07-2019, 01:51 PM
So if the Democrats put up the money for the polling places in 2020 you're good with giving them a 5% bonus in the vote totals?

Good to know.

That is not it at all. Nobody suggested the host school get bonus goals in the game. Your argument would be more accurate to say Democrats, or Republicans, could provide more polling places with heavy Democratic, or Republican, voters - i.e. gerrymandering. No guarantee they will go to the polls and vote how the "host" wants them to.

And with this, let's keep politics off this thread.

Kepler
04-07-2019, 03:44 PM
That is not it at all. Nobody suggested the host school get bonus goals in the game. Your argument would be more accurate to say Democrats, or Republicans, could provide more polling places with heavy Democratic, or Republican, voters - i.e. gerrymandering. No guarantee they will go to the polls and vote how the "host" wants them to.

And with this, let's keep politics off this thread.

My point wasn't about politics per se. It was that in a contest in which legitimacy depends on fairness introducing unfairness for whatever stupid "reason" (in this case, attendance and hence $$$) destroys the whole reason for the competition.

The algorithm should be as follows:

1. Be as neutral as humanly possible
2. When neutrality is impossible distribute advantage according to merit earned in the competition

The practical result is kill the regionals and put games in the better seed home rink. If Minnesota has to play in a 400 seat Atlantic Hockey rink, tough sh-t. Play better.

LTsatch
04-07-2019, 04:11 PM
How come no one ever complained when Yale played at Bridgeport, not much difference than the PC scenario.

ExileOnDaytonStreet
04-07-2019, 05:13 PM
How come no one ever complained when Yale played at Bridgeport, not much difference than the PC scenario.

It’s only due to sour grapes of a vocal fan base onthese parts.

You’d have to be high to think that the NCAA ought to send 3/4 seeds far away from home just to appease a 3/4 overall seed and risk lousy attendance at a regional.

Jon
04-07-2019, 06:21 PM
How come no one ever complained when Yale played at Bridgeport, not much difference than the PC scenario.

The amount of people of complaining on social media has gone up 10 fold.

pgb-ohio
04-07-2019, 06:37 PM
Gee, pgb, I really wanted to stay out of this argument this year. But I at least want to take issue with what I think is a mischaracterization of the rationale for “neutral” sites.I had intended that this morning's post be my "closing statement" for this year, so I'm not eager to crank it up again either. But I do owe you an answer.


To my knowledge, there has never been “one very specific” goal stated. The “very specific goal” that I think the current system achieves is much more modest.I didn't mean to suggest that one could find a set of meeting minutes that would say that. It's my opinion as to what the underlying motivation for the change was. The real reason, as opposed to the window dressing. My interpretation of the history, not a recitation of NCAA Press Releases.

Then again, as I've said several times this year, one's vantage point matters. Having personally attended the Yost and Mariucci regionals leads me to believe that crowd advantage was the key issue. But with a different set of experiences, maybe my beliefs would be different.


No team should host in their home rink. If the opportunity to host in their home rink is not earned that’s far, far, worse, but in my view it’s the home rink per se that should be avoided.I recall & understand your point. I do appreciate that you distinguish between earned & unearned home ice. We still disagree, but I'm glad we can do so diplomatically.

CLS
04-07-2019, 07:59 PM
Thanks pgb. I won't respond to you any more this year. I understand how the Providence situation might have fanned the flames. See ya' next year.:)

chickod
04-07-2019, 08:32 PM
In other news, just to emphasize the overwhelming popularity of the game, I wonder if the NCAA President will be in Buffalo to present the trophy to the National Champions as he was tonight to present it to the women's basketball champions. :)

Fishman'81
04-07-2019, 08:58 PM
In other news, just to emphasize the overwhelming popularity of the game, I wonder if the NCAA President will be in Buffalo to present the trophy to the National Champions as he was tonight to present it to the women's basketball champions. :)

Not going to comment on that one, but I will say that the 4th quarter of the womens' game tonight was pretty epic.

ticapnews
04-07-2019, 09:24 PM
How come no one ever complained when Yale played at Bridgeport, not much difference than the PC scenario.

People were going to complain but were silenced by the Skull and Bones.

pgb-ohio
04-07-2019, 10:26 PM
Thanks pgb. I won't respond to you any more this year. I understand how the Providence situation might have fanned the flames. See ya' next year.:)There are other topics, of course.:o;) For my part, I'm more than ready to turn my attention to the trip to Buffalo & the games themselves.

The Rube
04-07-2019, 10:31 PM
People were going to complain but were silenced by the Skull and Bones.

teehee. Nice one. :D

LTsatch
04-08-2019, 07:08 AM
People were going to complain but were silenced by the Skull and Bones.

I spoke to a friend of mine at the last Yale game who is a Fire Battalion Chief in New Haven, he responded to an automatic fire alarm at Skull and Bones the other night and some young man appeared at the door shouting "you can't come in here!" One of the truck company guys shouldered him aside and the crew took care of business resetting the false alarm. They all got a good tour of the place and it is as creepy as the rumours.

Slap Shot
04-08-2019, 09:34 AM
The usage of neutral site locations doesn't seem to provide any more of a guarantee of a, "neutral" game environment than preventing campus sites from being used. North Dakota (not singling them out just as an example) has never had a "home" crowd in this new era of neutral sites? And how many hugely "unfair" regionals were there previously - I think pgb noted 2?

The questions are likely moot as they're not going back anytime soon if ever, but the thought crossed my mind.

Numbers
04-08-2019, 10:12 AM
The usage of neutral site locations doesn't seem to provide any more of a guarantee of a, "neutral" game environment than preventing campus sites from being used. North Dakota (not singling them out just as an example) has never had a "home" crowd in this new era of neutral sites? And how many hugely "unfair" regionals were there previously - I think pgb noted 2?

The questions are likely moot as they're not going back anytime soon if ever, but the thought crossed my mind.

I'm kind of on Slap Shot's side on this one.....

I'm not sure anyone here really has a problem with Minnesota hosting at the X, or any such arrangement, including NoDak at either Sioux Falls or Fargo. The stated rules of engagement say this:
No campus sites (You could argue this is mainly for the sake of REA in Grand Forks, and perhaps some on campus arena in the east, I am not sure)
Host institution plays at the regional it is hosting if they qualify.

Obviously, these rules are in place to do 2 things:
1- Keep the games off campus (for neutrality)
2- Make sure that the fans of the host school attend the regional if the school qualifies. This means: There is actually incentive to bid. Without the 'host plays at home' rule, there would be far fewer bids. (at least that's the assumption)

These are the rules.
What we have seen, twice in the last 5 years, is that the rules have been tweaked by the committee so that Providence College plays in their home town WITHOUT being the host school. This is, of course, a tremendous advantage. And, both times it has been as a #4 seed band team.

What this means is that the rules are actually:
No campus sites
Host schools play at home
We do anything we can to sell tickets

The fact that there is no admission of the 3rd of these is what is the irritation, I believe.

And, of course, it has led to the current complaints of unlevel playing fields.

As to Minnesota hosting at Mariucci in 2003, and playing Ferris State.....
They were the designated host.
They did the work
They were a #1 seed besides.
My opinion is that, although you could say "But what if the Gophers were the #4...." and then decide you needed a different system, I feel that this particular situation was NOT egregious, because they were a #1.

I won't speak to the Yost situation, because I am unfamiliar with it.

Yale at Bridgeport was as a #1 seed.

All of which points to these conclusions:
1- Neutrality is impossible in a situation with a niche sport
2- NCAA still wants to make money, even though it is a niche sport
3- The combination of 1 and 2 mean that campus sites are not going to be allowed (although there are reasons that it would work well)
4- The current system is a sort of 'lie', in that everyone is trying to convince themselves that is works, when it doesn't. At least as far as competitive fairness goes
5- No changes are going to happen any time soon, because creating a system which actually does what we want it to hardly exists.

Sean Pickett
04-08-2019, 11:22 AM
And how many hugely "unfair" regionals were there previously - I think pgb noted 2?There have been 11 regionals at the host team’s rink:
1994 MSU lost at Munn
1995 Wisconsin won and lost at Dane County Coliseum
1996 MSU lost at Munn
1998 Michigan won twice at Yost
2002 Michigan won twice at Yost
2003 Minnesota won twice at Marriucci
2003 Michigan won twice at Yost
2005 Minnesota won twice at Marriucci
2006 UND won twice at Ralph Englstad Arena
2008 Colorado College lost at Colorado Springs World Arena
2008 Wisconsin won and lost at Kohl Center
record: 14-5 0.739
The host team advanced to the Frozen Four 6 out of 11 times.

Sean

MTUHuskies
04-08-2019, 11:32 AM
There have been 11 regionals at the host team’s rink:
1994 MSU lost at Munn
1995 Wisconsin won and lost at Dane County Coliseum
1996 MSU lost at Munn
1998 Michigan won twice at Yost
2002 Michigan won twice at Yost
2003 Minnesota won twice at Marriucci
2003 Michigan won twice at Yost
2005 Minnesota won twice at Marriucci
2006 UND won twice at Ralph Englstad Arena
2008 Colorado College lost at Colorado Springs World Arena
2008 Wisconsin won and lost at Kohl Center
record: 14-5 0.739
The host team advanced to the Frozen Four 6 out of 11 times.

SeanI know I can look it up but I'm driving so I'll be lazy and just ask. What were the host team seeds?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

cetihcra
04-08-2019, 12:01 PM
I know I can look it up but I'm driving so I'll be lazy and just ask. What were the host team seeds?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

1994 MSU lost at Munn MSU was a 6-seed (12 team tourney)
1995 Wisconsin won and lost at Dane County Coliseum UW was a 4-seed (12 team tourney)
1996 MSU lost at Munn MSU was a 5-seed (12 team tourney)
1998 Michigan won twice at Yost Michigan was a 3-seed (12 team tourney)
2002 Michigan won twice at Yost Michigan was a 4-seed (12 team tourney)
2003 Minnesota won twice at Marriucci Minny was a 1-seed (16 team tourney)
2003 Michigan won twice at Yost Michigan was a 3-seed (16 team tourney)
2005 Minnesota won twice at Marriucci Minny was a 1-seed (16 team tourney)
2006 UND won twice at Ralph Englstad Arena UND was a 2-seed (16 team tourney)
2008 Colorado College lost at Colorado Springs World Arena CC was a 2-seed (16 team tourney)
2008 Wisconsin won and lost at Kohl Center UW was a 3-seed (16 team tourney)