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  • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

    Regardless of whether Dan and Chuck continue their discussion about who's the better goalie, one thing that stood out for me at least was the fact that it was mentioned by someone that it took Greg Carvel what, 3 years to bring this program up to where it is right now? And who knows how they'll do going forward (but I suspect they will have a decent year, that's a no brainer). Not sure if I have those numbers right would have to look it up but I'm thinking he's been there at least that. I know most here see the 3 year transition for Souza in the same vein I don't quite agree entirely (the recruiting piece sure and he has brought in I think some decent talent that needs to develop).

    It's in playing the games that you find out what you've got in front of you and if anyone hear read the seacoastonline story about this game, Coach Souza pointed out they have "lots of work to do". Lest anyone forget...just count how many Frosh are out there in any given shift...3 most of the time? We took a couple of lousy penalties (MacAdams got a game misconduct I believe?) and they (the 'Cats) are going to have to just be better on many fronts and that's what I'm looking to see from this team is that they improve. It's going to be that kind of season folks and we all get that.

    Big competition coming up this weekend and it would be awesome to steal one...(esp. UML) let's go 'Cats!!
    Last edited by HockeyRef; 11-05-2018, 09:22 AM.
    Here we go 'Cats!!

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    • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

      Originally posted by HockeyRef View Post
      Regardless of whether Dan and Chuck continue their discussion about who's the better goalie, one thing that stood out for me at least was the fact that it was mentioned by someone that it took Greg Carvel what, 3 years to bring this program up to where it is right now? And who knows how they'll do going forward (but I suspect they will have a decent year, that's a no brainer). Not sure if I have those numbers right would have to look it up but I'm thinking he's been there at least that. I know most here see the 3 year transition for Souza in the same vein I don't quite agree entirely (the recruiting piece sure and he has brought in I think some decent talent that needs to develop).

      It's in playing the games that you find out what you've got in front of you and if anyone hear read the seacoastonline story about this game, Coach Souza pointed out they have "lots of work to do". Lest anyone forget...just count how many Frosh are out there in any given shift...3 most of the time? We took a couple of lousy penalties (MacAdams got a game misconduct I believe?) and they (the 'Cats) are going to have to just be better on many fronts and that's what I'm looking to see from this team is that they improve. It's going to be that kind of season folks and we all get that.

      Big competition coming up this weekend and it would be awesome to steal one...(esp. UML) let's go 'Cats!!
      That was me as well, Ref. Here is my concern with that thought process - recruiting is almost entirely the reason why Carvel has UMass where they are three years later. It started with hiim taking the job and immediately convincing Makar and Leonard to maintain their commitments. Meanwhile, UNH lost Farabee and Ryzcek. Since then, Carvel has put together some of the best classes in the country despite facing many of the same obstacles we hear are hindering UNH recruiting efforts - if not to a more serious degree. UMass also deals with youth concerns - they skate on a regular basis some combination of 10 sophomores and 8 freshmen.

      The argument certainly exists that Carvel was able to hammer home his desired style of play the last three years. In that regard Souza was clearly at the mercy of Umile to some degree. So he gets some leeway there, even though Im not sure how different their approaches really are. Everything Souza says about wanting to play with speed and transition is what UNH has always wanted to do. And recruiting is and always will be the most important factor in how good a team is - the Carvel/Souza timelines will always be the same on that front...
      Last edited by Dan; 11-05-2018, 10:19 AM.
      Live Free or Die!!
      Miami University '03

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      • Originally posted by e.cat View Post
        Go Red Sox!
        Still "just trying to help," I see. :-)

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        • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

          As for the goalie debate - I know I said I'd move on, but here's one more point ecat has goaded me into...

          ---

          I should give Chuck credit for digging into some research and using stats to argue his point. I've often accused him of not willing to do just that - but its hard to take them seriously when he dismisses statistics out of hand so often. They also represent the very fringes of what was being discussed and they don't actually prove his point - quite the contrary...

          First of all, comparing career stats for Tirone and Robinson is a fool's errand when one has played and entire career and the other has played 11 games - allowing outliers like 20% of ones goals against coming in less than 5% of ones minutes played to manipulate the data. Its not apples and oranges. Not remotely. If Chuck thinks its too early to judge Robinson at all, than its far to early to compare career stats. Thats disingenuous. That stats will tell the story when the sample size is big enough. I have no doubt about that. Meanwhile, simply watching Robinson play fills in all the gaps...

          Secondly, the stats presented lack context. I know Chuck dislikes DeSmith, but Im still shocked he'd actually assert that Tirone was nearly his equal. I think that is ridiculous, but lets examine the comparison. DeSmith's save-percentage numbers may seem only slightly better (though 1-2 more goals every three games is hardly insignificant) than Tirone's in a vaccum, but how do each's numbers compare to their respective peers around the country...??

          DeSmith
          FR - 92.6% - 14th in the Country
          SO - 92.4% - 19th
          JR - 92.0% - 25th

          Tirone
          FR - 92.4% - 20th
          SO - 90.7% - 61st
          JR - 91.0% - 52nd
          SR - 91.7% - 35th

          So DeSmith's worst SPCT finish essentially matches Tirone's best and after that there is no comparison. DeSmith also lost a SR year that would have given him four top-25 SPCT years to one for DT. Oh, and there is that little issue of DeSmith making it to, and playing wel in, the NHL while Tirone struggled mightily in a short ECHL stint. Ty Conklin only posted save-percentages of 92.3%, 90.8% and 92.0%. What should we conclude from that? Was he DeSmith's equal and only marginally better than Tirone? Or is the college game rapidly changing? I'd certainly argue the latter.

          Ok, now Im done...
          Last edited by Dan; 11-05-2018, 10:18 AM.
          Live Free or Die!!
          Miami University '03

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          • Originally posted by Snively65 View Post
            Still "just trying to help," I see. :-)
            It's the least I can do
            UNH Hockey: You can check out any time you like but you can never leave!

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            • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

              Originally posted by Dan View Post
              That was me as well, Ref. Here is my concern with that thought process - recruiting is almost entirely the reason why Carvel has UMass where they are three years later. It started with hiim taking the job and immediately convincing Makar and Leonard to maintain their commitments. Meanwhile, UNH lost Farabee and Ryzcek. Since then, Carvel has put together some of the best classes in the country despite facing many of the same obstacles we hear are hindering UNH recruiting efforts - if not to a more serious degree. UMass also deals with youth concerns - they skate on a regular basis some combination of 10 sophomores and 8 freshmen.

              The argument certainly exists that Carvel was able to hammer home his desired style of play the last three years. In that regard Souza was clearly at the mercy of Umile to some degree. So he gets some leeway there, even though Im not sure how different their approaches really are. Everything Souza says about wanting to play with speed and transition is what UNH has always wanted to do. And recruiting is and always will be the most important factor in how good a team is - the Carvel/Souza timelines will always be the same on that front...
              And I would like to say that when Carvel came on, UMass AD Ryan Blandford made a super big deal of him and his staff coming from St. Lawrence and that they would 'transform' the hockey culture at the Flagship...and indeed they have. I didn't really want to bring this up per se because I don't want/need anymore dirty looks at the 'Whitt and I believe there is huge support for Souza taking the reigns. He said it himself this weekend that it was eye opening for them for sure and I believe he and his staff will continue to work tirelessly on improving the current team...and beyond. It hurt to lose those players you mention (and I don't even want to go there about Commesso) but we've gotta move forward at some point. Talking about the past UNH success is all good and it's the back bone of the program, but it has to be URGENT that the landscape has indeed changed and you can't rest on those laurels and the results speak on the ice.

              Sooooo to move us ahead, and this is the only way to go at this point, I think we can be optimistic. Recruiting is the back bone of any program and I have to believe UNH can and should, compete with the best of them out there regardless of the state of our locker room I mean, seriously. Player lounges? How nice. Does Union have them? I've been to their rink...nothing but a ton of pride and desire in that building. And a banner. If that's what's keeping quality player (s) from coming here...well, give me a break but I digress. I see NO reason why any player wouldn't want to come to UNH. And I stand by that.

              It's true that I really don't have the fan background you all do. I wish I had seen a HE championship or a trip to the FF. But that doesn't mean I don't believe those things are possible for our 'Cats....au contraire mes amies. (my French is lousy...ha!)
              Last edited by HockeyRef; 11-05-2018, 10:46 AM.
              Here we go 'Cats!!

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              • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                Originally posted by HockeyRef View Post
                And I would like to say that when Carvel came on, UMass AD Ryan Blandford made a super big deal of him and his staff coming from St. Lawrence and that they would 'transform' the hockey culture at the Flagship...and indeed they have. I didn't really want to bring this up per se because I don't want/need anymore dirty looks at the 'Whitt and I believe there is huge support for Souza taking the reigns. He said it himself this weekend that it was eye opening for them for sure and I believe he and his staff will continue to work tirelessly on improving the current team...and beyond. It hurt to lose those players you mention (and I don't even want to go there about Commesso) but we've gotta move forward at some point. Talking about the past UNH success is all good and it's the back bone of the program, but it has to be URGENT that the landscape has indeed changed and you can't rest on those laurels and the results speak on the ice.

                Sooooo to move us ahead, and this is the only way to go at this point, I think we can be optimistic. Recruiting is the back bone of any program and I have to believe UNH can and should, compete with the best of them out there regardless of the state of our locker room I mean, seriously. Player lounges? How nice. Does Union have them? I've been to their rink...nothing but a ton of pride and desire in that building. And a banner. If that's what's keeping quality player (s) from coming here...well, give me a break but I digress. I see NO reason why any player wouldn't want to come to UNH. And I stand by that.

                It's true that I really don't have the fan background you all do. I wish I had seen a HE championship or a trip to the FF. But that doesn't mean I don't believe those things are possible for our 'Cats....au contraire mes amies. (my French is lousy...ha!)
                You are 100% correct. If you are getting dirty looks for this post - that is on them. They would likely be upset with you for pointing out what they know to be true, but are not willing to admit or overcome...
                Live Free or Die!!
                Miami University '03

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                • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                  The funny thing about Robinson v. Tirone right now is that Tirone has it over Robinson in three different ways - better save pct., better winning percentage, and the coaches played him consistently over Robinson all of last season. The coaches also could have asked Robinson to matriculate a year earlier if they thought he was so good, and/or Tirone was somehow lacking in comparison to Robinson. None of that happened.

                  You like net-fillers, I like more athletic goalies. That's the basic disconnect, Dan. It's laughable that you continue to insist it's a settled issue, when nothing - other than your subjective opinion, with nothing else to back it up - points to a conclusion that Robinson has been a better D-1 goalie than Tirone. Yet. As I've mentioned several times since, I hope Robinson proves me wrong. But that hasn't happened. Yet. At least you've backed off on the slanderous Tirone-Digirolamo comparison.

                  I have no issue with admitting DeSmith was/is the better goalie, and the best UNH has had over the last decade. He did some stupid stuff off the ice, which screwed up a promising season for him, his teammates and the program. But he's paid the price, turned it around, and earned himself a gig in the show. Good for him. I don't go ga-ga over what he does with the Pens, but I truly don't have any lingering animosity. If anyone wants to carry a grudge, that's up to the folks he let down in the program, or to those directly involved in the incident in question. Having some inside info on the latter issue, I'll just leave it at that.

                  In the end, I won't let our personal goalie disagreements get in the way of hoping for the best for the UNH program. It's just kind of sad (pathetic?) that you feel compelled to bury a kid like Tirone, who was a pretty good D-1 goalie for three-and-a-half seasons in Durham, only because he didn't fit your model for what a D-1 goalie should look like. The (premature) elevation of Robinson to "superior" status is just you trying to jam your anti-Tirone narrative through. I'll be thrilled if Robinson proves you right in time, just as I was thrilled for e.cat, UNH Football and Coach MacDonnell when that situation eventually turned around despite my doubts. It might just make sense, though, if you wait until the evidence favors you to declare "victory". Just sayin'
                  Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
                  Montreal Expos Forever ...

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                  • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                    Originally posted by Dan View Post
                    I don't have to bend in any direction to make the case Robinson is better than his predecessor- I just have to watch the two play. It's pretty clear.
                    Agreed. If nothing else, Robinson is enjoyable to watch after four years of DT flopping all over the ice, raising everyone's blood pressure. DT was a fan heart attack waiting to happen. Robinson gives reason to be optimistic that things will soon be under control. He made several good saves on Saturday by being large and in the right position.

                    Originally posted by Dan View Post
                    Robinson's start this year has been four great games and one less than stellar game
                    It is early. One difference from last year, this could change with continued losing, is that while clearly out talented on Saturday, the 'cats did not appear to be resigned to losing. I'd like to think that competing against UMass' talent level was an education that our younger players will learn and grow from.

                    Originally posted by Dan View Post
                    Wins are a team stat, not a goalie stat...
                    ...exactly. Team defense was a big difference Saturday. Several times UMass cleaned up defensive rebounds. UNH, not so much.


                    Stay classy. Not UMassy.
                    I will not be out cheered in my own building.

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                    • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                      Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                      I have no issue with admitting DeSmith was/is the better goalie, and the best UNH has had over the last decade. He did some stupid stuff off the ice, which screwed up a promising season for him, his teammates and the program. But he's paid the price, turned it around, and earned himself a gig in the show. Good for him. I don't go ga-ga over what he does with the Pens, but I truly don't have any lingering animosity. If anyone wants to carry a grudge, that's up to the folks he let down in the program, or to those directly involved in the incident in question. Having some inside info on the latter issue, I'll just leave it at that.
                      I am SO happy for Casey and proud of his resilience and drive. While stupid and excessive, the off ice behavior that led to trouble was no different than the behavior of many college students. He did let people down, but my guess is that he is not the only one involved who would like a do over.
                      I will not be out cheered in my own building.

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                      • Originally posted by Darius View Post
                        Agreed. If nothing else, Robinson is enjoyable to watch after four years of DT flopping all over the ice, raising everyone's blood pressure. DT was a fan heart attack waiting to happen. Robinson gives reason to be optimistic that things will soon be under control. He made several good saves on Saturday by being large and in the right position.

                        It is early. One difference from last year, this could change with continued losing, is that while clearly out talented on Saturday, the 'cats did not appear to be resigned to losing. I'd like to think that competing against UMass' talent level was an education that our younger players will learn and grow from.

                        ...exactly. Team defense was a big difference Saturday. Several times UMass cleaned up defensive rebounds. UNH, not so much

                        Stay classy. Not UMassy.
                        Great post Darius! Agree that the ‘Cats didn’t seem resigned to lose and that’s a good thing! This weekend is a big test of how they respond from this weekend looking forward!
                        Here we go 'Cats!!

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                        • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                          Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                          In the end, I won't let our personal goalie disagreements get in the way of hoping for the best for the UNH program. It's just kind of sad (pathetic?) that you feel compelled to bury a kid like Tirone, who was a pretty good D-1 goalie for three-and-a-half seasons in Durham, only because he didn't fit your model for what a D-1 goalie should look like. The (premature) elevation of Robinson to "superior" status is just you trying to jam your anti-Tirone narrative through. I'll be thrilled if Robinson proves you right in time, just as I was thrilled for e.cat, UNH Football and Coach MacDonnell when that situation eventually turned around despite my doubts. It might just make sense, though, if you wait until the evidence favors you to declare "victory". Just sayin'
                          Well...this is a statement that I cannot let go. Chuck, if one of us has extended an impression of trying to 'bury', root against or even make character/personal jabs towards UNH players and alums its you (JVR, Poturalski, DeSmith, Foegele). I expect you'll respond and chalk that up to analysis and a difference of opinion. Fair enough, but if you're going to do that, than you need to extend me the same courtesy. Especially considering YOU were the one who brought Tirone into the conversation in the first place. This ordeal started as a 100% discussion of Robinson, himself, with no comparison. You assumed that last year's 6-1-1 start must have been a result of DT's play - when the real catalyst was the offense, while Tirone played intermittently OK to great - you could have just recognized that and moved on but you accelerated the rehash of the 'better goalie' debate instead. Not me...

                          I have ZERO problem with Tirone's style of play or size - I struggle with the results, the number of tough goals and the ill-timed goals. I have always kept my criticism of him to his play on the ice. I discuss what I see good and bad from UNH Hockey. I watched Jeff Lerg play for two straight years at Michigan State - dominating with athletic ability at 5-6 with nary a complaint. He was the best athlete on the team, but also an incredibly sound goaltender who played his angles, skated at an elite level, was never out of position or off-balance, made all the routine stops and the majority of the timely ones. That's not what we saw consistently the last 3.5 years. It just wasn't. And when you're not all that, small stature is going to be a factor and consistency is going to be an issue. It is a testament to Tirone's work-ethic and compete level that he was able to overcome that as much as he did - I always tried to hedge my criticism by recognizing this. And I complimented him when he played well - even if I never felt it would last consistently or was more vocal when he didn't...

                          My evaluation of Robinson is stand alone - based on what I've seen, heard, read and researched. I don't need to stare at the sun for a full year to know it hurts my eyes...

                          --

                          As for the rest of the discussion. I think we can agree were done here. You are still making arguments you've ridiculed in the past, ignoring all context and haven't made the effort to actually evaluate Robinson other than calling him a 'net-filler'. If you don't think he's athletically gifted - and moves very well as a result - then I can only assume you simply haven't seen much of him yet. Im tired of that line of debate and Im sure a lot of posters are tired with both sides...
                          Last edited by Dan; 11-05-2018, 01:23 PM.
                          Live Free or Die!!
                          Miami University '03

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                          • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                            Originally posted by Darius View Post
                            It is early. One difference from last year, this could change with continued losing, is that while clearly out talented on Saturday, the 'cats did not appear to be resigned to losing. I'd like to think that competing against UMass' talent level was an education that our younger players will learn and grow from.
                            They did not. They did not at CC, either. More consistent forward 'push' could make them a fun team to watch, and a playoff team, at the very least...
                            Live Free or Die!!
                            Miami University '03

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                            • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                              Originally posted by HockeyRef View Post
                              Great post Darius! Agree that the ‘Cats didn’t seem resigned to lose and that’s a good thing! This weekend is a big test of how they respond from this weekend looking forward!
                              The November 18th Amherst rematch is on NESN+ !!!
                              I will not be out cheered in my own building.

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                              • Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity

                                Originally posted by Dan View Post
                                They did not. They did not at CC, either. More consistent forward 'push' could make them a fun team to watch, and a playoff team, at the very least...
                                The concern is balancing forward push with team defense. Cover a few loose puck rebounds and the tone of Saturday's game is quite different. Looking at the likes of Wyse, Maas, Gildon, Boyd... this is more of a concern than it should be.
                                I will not be out cheered in my own building.

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