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Numbers
02-19-2018, 10:40 AM
What I’m saying is that I oppose efforts to give teams that already have the high ground — in the form of weaker opponents — an additional home ice advantage in a sport where it is notoriously hard to win in another team’s arena.

At that point you’re just letting the Frozen Four participants host exhibition games.

Got it. I appreciate the input.

purpleinnebraska
02-19-2018, 10:52 AM
What Iím saying is that I oppose efforts to give teams that already have the high ground ó in the form of weaker opponents ó an additional home ice advantage in a sport where it is notoriously hard to win in another teamís arena.

At that point youíre just letting the Frozen Four participants host exhibition games.

I'm neither for nor against home games in the tournament, but I think we ought to pick a rationale and stick with it. Right now, we insist on regional sites because they are neutral and "fair," but then we have host schools and we mess with bracket integrity by swapping teams to boost attendance. What are we trying to achieve?

ticapnews
02-19-2018, 11:22 AM
What are we trying to achieve?

To make as much money as possible for the NCAA.

purpleinnebraska
02-19-2018, 11:29 AM
To make as much money as possible for the NCAA.

Then home ice in arenas of at least 5000 makes the most sense.

ticapnews
02-19-2018, 11:37 AM
Then home ice in arenas of at least 5000 makes the most sense.

But then you have the occasional 1 seed whose arena isn't large enough or is too remote. The NCAA can make more money long-term with regional hosts paying out the *** for the right to lose money on the games (seriously, read the agreement the NCAA makes hosts sign) and just tweak the brackets when they need to. I would love to see the financials for the hockey regionals.

mookie1995
02-19-2018, 12:03 PM
Nowadays does anyone appreciate how hard it would be to keep rinks open for the potential of a couple games?

Agganis will no doubt have events planned months in advance. Mookie is sure other barns also schedule stuff. You are asking buildings to forgo revenue with no guarantee at all.

Numbers
02-19-2018, 12:11 PM
But then you have the occasional 1 seed whose arena isn't large enough or is too remote. The NCAA can make more money long-term with regional hosts paying out the *** for the right to lose money on the games (seriously, read the agreement the NCAA makes hosts sign) and just tweak the brackets when they need to. I would love to see the financials for the hockey regionals.

This is exactly what leads to the discussion. Grand Rapids, MI no longer bids because they lose money. I doubt you'll see a Cincinnati bid again. Notre Dame hosted on campus a couple years ago and the committee said.. No one else bid. Now, Allentown is trying for two years. The only chance they have of making it work is it the committee treats them like a third eastern regional.

West is going to be ok, because NoDak will bid every year at either Sioux Falls or Fargo, and never lose money doing it. In theory,St Cloud or Duluth could do the same because their rinks are not on campus (I think). East is usually fine, but Albany is out of the rotation, because not enough fans go up there.

All this would take is a couple of lean years in the East, and no one would bid. Then what would the committee do?

ticapnews
02-19-2018, 12:46 PM
This is exactly what leads to the discussion. Grand Rapids, MI no longer bids because they lose money. I doubt you'll see a Cincinnati bid again. Notre Dame hosted on campus a couple years ago and the committee said.. No one else bid. Now, Allentown is trying for two years. The only chance they have of making it work is it the committee treats them like a third eastern regional.

West is going to be ok, because NoDak will bid every year at either Sioux Falls or Fargo, and never lose money doing it. In theory,St Cloud or Duluth could do the same because their rinks are not on campus (I think). East is usually fine, but Albany is out of the rotation, because not enough fans go up there.

All this would take is a couple of lean years in the East, and no one would bid. Then what would the committee do?

The committee can count on suckers like the Portland, Maine bid. It will be a financial mess if it comes here. Especially if Maine or New Hampshire don't make it (which isn't exactly a long shot).

Numbers
02-19-2018, 12:58 PM
The committee can count on suckers like the Portland, Maine bid. It will be a financial mess if it comes here. Especially if Maine or New Hampshire don't make it (which isn't exactly a long shot).

Has it been there before?

ticapnews
02-19-2018, 01:19 PM
Has it been there before?

No, but they bid for at least 2019 and 2020. The Icebreaker in 2015 was their audition and dry run. I think the tournament went well but there is a huge difference between that tournament and hosting a regional - particularly financial. Looking over the application I can't see how the university plans to make a cent, and it will likely cost them $50-100000. That's money we don't have.

Pump It Up
02-19-2018, 01:47 PM
This is exactly what leads to the discussion. Grand Rapids, MI no longer bids because they lose money. I doubt you'll see a Cincinnati bid again. Notre Dame hosted on campus a couple years ago and the committee said.. No one else bid. Now, Allentown is trying for two years. The only chance they have of making it work is it the committee treats them like a third eastern regional.

West is going to be ok, because NoDak will bid every year at either Sioux Falls or Fargo, and never lose money doing it. In theory,St Cloud or Duluth could do the same because their rinks are not on campus (I think). East is usually fine, but Albany is out of the rotation, because not enough fans go up there.

All this would take is a couple of lean years in the East, and no one would bid. Then what would the committee do?

You're right about Duluth being off campus. SCSU's arena is on campus. However, I don't believe being on or off campus is the issue. The NCAA doesn't want any team to host in their home arena, so both of those options would be out. By way of their rule, which they don't always follow - Minnesota can't host at Mariucci (although they did so fairly recently), but they can host a few miles away at Xcel.

Omaha is the best example. They got their new on campus barn and moved out of the CenturyLink. So, if they so elected, they could and likely would be awarded a regional in downtown Omaha at their former arena.

The system as currently constructed works fine out east. The west/midwest will continue to be a mess under the neutral site format, but the coaches don't want to change it. If we allow #1 seeds to host, even if all the logistics work, that just ensures a handful of power teams from power conferences host more often than not. The rich get richer.

Numbers
02-19-2018, 02:43 PM
You're right about Duluth being off campus. SCSU's arena is on campus. However, I don't believe being on or off campus is the issue. The NCAA doesn't want any team to host in their home arena, so both of those options would be out. By way of their rule, which they don't always follow - Minnesota can't host at Mariucci (although they did so fairly recently), but they can host a few miles away at Xcel.

Omaha is the best example. They got their new on campus barn and moved out of the CenturyLink. So, if they so elected, they could and likely would be awarded a regional in downtown Omaha at their former arena.

The system as currently constructed works fine out east. The west/midwest will continue to be a mess under the neutral site format, but the coaches don't want to change it. If we allow #1 seeds to host, even if all the logistics work, that just ensures a handful of power teams from power conferences host more often than not. The rich get richer.

Thanks for clarifying the home ice rule. As for top seeds, I think there are two considerations. One is that the top seeds gets spread more than we think, and I'm going to check on that this afternoon.

The other is that there is no world where it's right for Mankato or Denver or someone from out east who is a top seed to have to play NoDak in Fargo or Sioux Falls when 90% of the barn is full of NoDak fans, when NoDak is a 3 seed. That's worse than the top see hosting.

But I don't have a solution, because the NCAA wants it's money, and money comes from fans, and they have the most of them.

Numbers
02-19-2018, 02:44 PM
No, but they bid for at least 2019 and 2020. The Icebreaker in 2015 was their audition and dry run. I think the tournament went well but there is a huge difference between that tournament and hosting a regional - particularly financial. Looking over the application I can't see how the university plans to make a cent, and it will likely cost them $50-100000. That's money we don't have.

I would agree. Without the Maine team, it's just too far up there. Empty barn.

purpleinnebraska
02-19-2018, 02:48 PM
Thanks for clarifying the home ice rule. As for top seeds, I think there are two considerations. One is that the top seeds gets spread more than we think, and I'm going to check on that this afternoon.

The other is that there is no world where it's right for Mankato or Denver or someone from out east who is a top seed to have to play NoDak in Fargo or Sioux Falls when 90% of the barn is full of NoDak fans, when NoDak is a 3 seed. That's worse than the top see hosting.

But I don't have a solution, because the NCAA wants it's money, and money comes from fans, and they have the most of them.

Bingo! And that's what I don't like about the "No Home Rinks!" position. We already have it, but now it's unearned. If we're not going to award the top 4 seeds with home ice, then no one should get it.

ticapnews
02-19-2018, 04:41 PM
I would agree. Without the Maine team, it's just too far up there. Empty barn.

But Portland might get it, depending on how much they bid on who else is out there. It really isn't THAT far - 2 hours from Boston - and Portland is a regional transportation hub with a train coming from Boston regularly. Here in the East though it may as well be the moon. What's amusing is you'll still hear people complain that the CIC in Bangor wasn't built with ice so it can't host a regional. As if Bangor would ever get a regional anyway.

scoreboard
02-19-2018, 04:51 PM
But Portland might get it, depending on how much they bid on who else is out there. It really isn't THAT far - 2 hours from Boston - and Portland is a regional transportation hub with a train coming from Boston regularly. Here in the East though it may as well be the moon. What's amusing is you'll still hear people complain that the CIC in Bangor wasn't built with ice so it can't host a regional. As if Bangor would ever get a regional anyway.

I think a regional in Portland is a good idea. As you started it is easily accessible from Boston. It is actually closer to Boston than it is to Orono. The arena seats about 6200 which is a nice size for a regional. Portland is also a fun and reasonably priced city.

Numbers
02-19-2018, 04:51 PM
In regard to #1 seeds...

In the last 11 years, there have been 21 different schools who had a #1 seed for the tournament (11 years is a totally random choice of years - don't make anything of that....)
Of those years, these schools have had more than one:
BC - 5
Minn - 4
NoDak - 4
Miami - 4
Denver - 3
Michigan - 3
Union - 2
Q-pac - 2
Wisconsin - 2
BU - 2
NoDame - 2
New Hampshire - 2

This is just my opinion, but I would guess that spreading the hosting out among those schools would be a better spread than what currently happens, and it's not all "big schools' there either.

ticapnews
02-19-2018, 06:18 PM
I think a regional in Portland is a good idea. As you started it is easily accessible from Boston. It is actually closer to Boston than it is to Orono. The arena seats about 6200 which is a nice size for a regional. Portland is also a fun and reasonably priced city.

From a fan perspective, a regional there would be great. I just don't see how it makes any financial sense for the host.

LTsatch
02-19-2018, 06:44 PM
But Portland might get it, depending on how much they bid on who else is out there. It really isn't THAT far - 2 hours from Boston - and Portland is a regional transportation hub with a train coming from Boston regularly. Here in the East though it may as well be the moon. What's amusing is you'll still hear people complain that the CIC in Bangor wasn't built with ice so it can't host a regional. As if Bangor would ever get a regional anyway.

Could someone explain to me why with all of this loss of money why Yale and Fairfield (no hockey team) continue to bid as hosts in Bridgeport? The place never sells out, maybe they are given a great price? The other funny thing about this regional is that Bridgeport is now Sacred Hearts home rink. What would happen with Yale as the host AND Sacred Heart make the tourney. As far-fetched as it seems it could be an interesting scenario.

ticapnews
02-19-2018, 09:11 PM
Could someone explain to me why with all of this loss of money why Yale and Fairfield (no hockey team) continue to bid as hosts in Bridgeport? The place never sells out, maybe they are given a great price? The other funny thing about this regional is that Bridgeport is now Sacred Hearts home rink. What would happen with Yale as the host AND Sacred Heart make the tourney. As far-fetched as it seems it could be an interesting scenario.

Does Fairfield host other NCAA events? They might have a deal with the NCAA. Yale has money to burn so who knows why they do it. Skulls tell them to? :p