PDA

View Full Version : So now what happens to DII??



GTOWN
10-19-2016, 10:54 AM
Does this spell the beginning of the end for DII hockey or the beginning of expansion for DII hockey?


http://www.uscho.com/2016/10/14/protests-at-st-anselm-over-schools-contract-not-being-renewed-with-nehc/

Buckeye22
10-19-2016, 11:56 AM
I guess St. A's, St. Mike's, Franklin Pierce, Post (and Holy Cross?) will just have to form a four or five team NE-10 conference (or maybe a DI/DII open conference if Holy Cross is included), so at least they have some form of championship to play for. Similar to what SNHU, FPU, Assumption and Stonehill have been doing over on the men's side. Not ideal, but if the NCAA hasn't done anything to address the situation of DII teams before, I don't see any reason why they would now.

Along those lines, can someone explain to me the situation of Holy Cross and Sacred Heart. Holy Cross apparently is classified as a DIII team (according to their athletics website) and plays in a DIII conference, but they're ineligible for the DIII post-season. According to the USCHO standings, Sacred Heart is considered DI and is listed as a DI independent, but plays an almost entirely DIII schedule. I know as recently as the late 90's some schools like UConn (at least their men's team, I don't know about the women) played DIII hockey even though they were DI schools. Is Holy Cross just grandfathered in? I've always wondered how they got around the NCAA's rules about playing down.

Arafel
10-19-2016, 12:57 PM
Holy Cross is technically a D-I team. It's why their players are listed in the D-I stats at USCHO. However, they play a D-III schedule. Their unwillingness (at the time) to upgrade the women's program to full D-I with scholarships is why, after the men's team beat Minnesota in 2006, HC declined the invite to join the ECAC, a spot that was then filled by Quinnipiac.

As far as I know, the rules about playing down just mean the team isn't eligible for the postseason or the national rankings. That was the case for the men's team in the 80s, as they played mostly D-III schools like Bowdoin and Norwich. Even in the years the men did well, they never could play in the playoffs.

I have heard rumors about HC joining Hockey East, and the women being upgraded accordingly, but so far, nothing definite.

joecct
10-19-2016, 01:31 PM
Cripes! The D-IIs have a solution sitting right in the NCAA by-laws.

They'll get killed in the 1st round of the tournament, but they'll have a post season.

Or, the NCAA kills the D-I tournament and makes it a National Collegiate Championship for all D-I and D-II schools, similar to what the women do.

GTOWN
10-19-2016, 02:30 PM
Sorry but I'm not clear on your comment about "similar to what the women do".

As best as I can tell, the 4 DII teams in the NEHC just play in the NEHC Women's Postseason Tournament in February/March. They don't even try to participate in Nationals.... Are you saying that they could if they wanted to?

HockeyEast33
10-19-2016, 04:42 PM
Sorry but I'm not clear on your comment about "similar to what the women do".

As best as I can tell, the 4 DII teams in the NEHC just play in the NEHC Women's Postseason Tournament in February/March. They don't even try to participate in Nationals.... Are you saying that they could if they wanted to?

Because there is no NCAA DII tournament, the DII schools are eligible to compete in the NCAA DI tournament (which is technically then the NCAA National Collegiate Women's tournament if that happens). The stranded D1 and DII schools could form a conference and if they have enough members and go through the probation period of 2 years would then be eligible for an autobid to the NCAA National Collegiate Women's tournament. The conference could be formed today I believe from existing DI and DII programs:

- St Anselms (DII)
- St Michaels (DII)
- Franklin Pierce (DII)
- Post University (DII)
- Sacred Heart (DI)
- Holy Cross (DI)

This conference would have an autobid two years after its formation. Unless the NCAA intervened and changed the rules (which is unlikely because they've been out there for years).

Buckeye22
10-19-2016, 06:54 PM
I have to imagine there's more to it than that. Like I understand the rule, but there has to be some sort of added expense of playing at the DI level. It can't be scholarships because you can play DI and not offer scholarships (i.e. the Ivy League schools, Union, RIT etc.). It just doesn't make much sense to me. As joecct and HE33 have pointed out it seems like a pretty obvious solution. There's gotta be something that has stopped these schools from doing this, both on the men's and women's side. I think Holy Cross will move up to DI sooner or later, especially if they get the boot from the NEHC. I think the four DII schools, if they really don't want to declare for the DI championship as they seem intent on not doing, will just have to soldier on as a four team conference with their own little tournament similar to what the NEHC has for them now. That way at least they have something. I think Holy Cross and Sacred Heart just need to step up and try and get an invite to the CHA.

NoChangeOnIcing
10-19-2016, 08:50 PM
Because there is no NCAA DII tournament, the DII schools are eligible to compete in the NCAA DI tournament (which is technically then the NCAA National Collegiate Women's tournament if that happens). The stranded D1 and DII schools could form a conference and if they have enough members and go through the probation period of 2 years would then be eligible for an autobid to the NCAA National Collegiate Women's tournament. The conference could be formed today I believe from existing DI and DII programs:

- St Anselms (DII)
- St Michaels (DII)
- Franklin Pierce (DII)
- Post University (DII)
- Sacred Heart (DI)
- Holy Cross (DI)

This conference would have an autobid two years after its formation. Unless the NCAA intervened and changed the rules (which is unlikely because they've been out there for years).


I dont think adding say 6-7 D1 Independent/D2 teams would push the cap over so they would have a play-in game. So you take away an At-Large Bid from a highly touted D1 team because the rules are the rules?? I think its wrong to take an At-Large Bid and give a 2 year old D2 league an Auto-Bid. These programs (unless they begin to award hockey scholarships) will need alot more than 2 years to even come close to cracking top 10 for D1.
Just because the numbers and rules allow it doesn't mean it should be done. The winner of the D2 would get annihilated first round whereas a more deserving team may actually have a shot at either winning or having a close first round game. And what do the coaches say to those teams, "sorry girls but numbers are the numbers, i know weve been ranked 4th all year and lost in the conference championship but this team that won 0 out of conference games is going in the tournament instead of us. Better luck next year". I dont think so. Its better for hockey to have closer games than blowouts.

HC needs to bite the bullet and offer scholarships like they do with their other sports. They need to upgrade the rink and then make a plug for Hockey East with the men.
St As should go D3, they would be a great D3 school and already have sports in place that would move over to D3 easily
St Mikes and FP same thing, should go D3 and defund scholarships. Im not aware of any of their sports(that they fund with scholarships) that are national contenders. Drop to D3 and perhaps they could be! All seem like nice schools that could contend if given the opportunity to do so!

joecct
10-19-2016, 09:06 PM
St. As thought about dropping down. They went as far as entering the exploratory stage, but pressure from within and alums, plus the lack of a D-III conference put the kibosh on the move down.

I THINK all the D1s and D2s playing D3 still count to the number of teams in configuring the size of the NCAA NCC. I know that when St. As plays St. Mike's, Hoky Cross, or Franklin Pierce that counts in the NCC PWR. It's just they don't play enough games vs D1 and D2 schools to qualify for the National Collegiate Championship.

So either they stay outside, or dip their feet in the big pool and know they'll get slaughtered in round 1.

GTOWN
10-20-2016, 09:40 AM
I can't see a handful of DII schools staying in limbo playing as independents for long. It feels like they have to make a move.....or wrap up their hockey programs. Wouldn't be surprised if this is part of a larger plan from the DIII schools to force the issue.

CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
10-20-2016, 07:01 PM
I can't see a handful of DII schools staying in limbo playing as independents for long. It feels like they have to make a move.....or wrap up their hockey programs. Wouldn't be surprised if this is part of a larger plan from the DIII schools to force the issue.

I mean, they've been playing meaningless hockey on the men's side for 16 years, why change now?

Buckeye22
10-20-2016, 07:54 PM
I mean, they've been playing meaningless hockey on the men's side for 16 years, why change now?

Exactly. When SNHU, Stonehill etc. got the boot from the ECAC-NE they didn't cut their programs or jump to DI. I don't think St. A's, St. Mike's or (on the women's side) Franklin Pierce will either. Unless the NCAA changes some rule saying they have to, I think these programs will be content (for whatever reason) to linger on the way they have been.

HockeyEast33
10-21-2016, 11:44 AM
I dont think adding say 6-7 D1 Independent/D2 teams would push the cap over so they would have a play-in game. So you take away an At-Large Bid from a highly touted D1 team because the rules are the rules?? I think its wrong to take an At-Large Bid and give a 2 year old D2 league an Auto-Bid. These programs (unless they begin to award hockey scholarships) will need alot more than 2 years to even come close to cracking top 10 for D1.
Just because the numbers and rules allow it doesn't mean it should be done. The winner of the D2 would get annihilated first round whereas a more deserving team may actually have a shot at either winning or having a close first round game. And what do the coaches say to those teams, "sorry girls but numbers are the numbers, i know weve been ranked 4th all year and lost in the conference championship but this team that won 0 out of conference games is going in the tournament instead of us. Better luck next year". I dont think so. Its better for hockey to have closer games than blowouts.

HC needs to bite the bullet and offer scholarships like they do with their other sports. They need to upgrade the rink and then make a plug for Hockey East with the men.
St As should go D3, they would be a great D3 school and already have sports in place that would move over to D3 easily
St Mikes and FP same thing, should go D3 and defund scholarships. Im not aware of any of their sports(that they fund with scholarships) that are national contenders. Drop to D3 and perhaps they could be! All seem like nice schools that could contend if given the opportunity to do so!

I didn't comment on whether or not the DI/DII conference should or shouldn't happen. I just stated the facts - the option exists today for it to happen whether the posters on this board are in favor or not. And yes, the auto-qualifier would likely get squashed in the NCAA tourney. But that happens all the time in the Mens and Womens BB tournaments - but occasionally there is an upset.

For the folks who keep saying schools should move up or down divisions, I think at least some of you don't understand the complexity of that decision. The NCAA no longer allows D3 or D2 schools to play up to D1 in a specific sport unless all their sports are D1 (there are grandfathered exceptions but they are few - many more in ice hockey than probably any other sport). The only time there is overlap/exception is when there is not a NCAA championship at a specific level (which is why in women's hockey DII teams can play with the DI teams in the NCAA tourney if they can qualify). And moving to D3 from D2 requires a school to move all its sports there, not just specific ones (remember that D2 schools can offer scholarships). Usually the holdup at D2 schools is one specific sport - I believe at St A's for example that the mens BB team has been a highly successful program in the past and the alumni are influential and won't allow the school to downgrade it to D2 even though it is clearly in the best interest of almost every other sport..

Buckeye22
10-21-2016, 11:55 AM
And moving to D3 from D2 requires a school to move all its sports there, not just specific ones (remember that D2 schools can offer scholarships). Usually the holdup at D2 schools is one specific sport - I believe at St A's for example that the mens BB team has been a highly successful program in the past and the alumni are influential and won't allow the school to downgrade it to D2 even though it is clearly in the best interest of almost every other sport..

I wouldn't go that far that it was clearly in the best interest of every other sport. I know from friends who went there that the football community, women's basketball community and likely most other sports were dead-set against moving to DIII as well. It clearly would've benefited the hockey team, but I don't think they decided to move to DIII because it would benefit the hockey team. I think they decided to move to DIII because they thought it would save them money. St. A's loves its hockey team and will keep it going, even in this limbo that they're stuck in, but I don't think the interests of that one sport were ever a major factor in whether they would go DIII or stay DII.