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Crimson on the Glass
03-23-2016, 01:59 PM
I read periodically about how the six Ivy League D1 hockey schools should split from ECAC and go it alone. It does seem as if it could allow them a lot more out of conference play, while maintaining fewer games overall, as is the priority. Would it be tough for poor performers like Brown and Princeton, or small fan-base teams like Harvard to fill their schedules?

But then the only current 6-team conference does not seem to like that size very much. As I understand it, Penn has a D1 history and a decent 2500 seat arena on campus which their club team and others enjoy. So larger than Hobey Baker, at least. Columbia seems like much more of a stretch. There really isn't much chance of this split happening, is there? As long as the rest of the ECAC stays in line with the Ivies' wishes.

ExileOnDaytonStreet
03-23-2016, 02:03 PM
If they wanted to go alone, I suspect they might have done so by now. I don't really have a good grasp on why they haven't/don't/won't, though, much less would I have an idea of why that could possibly change in the future.

At the end of the day, I suppose they're staying with the ECAC until the non-Ivies decide to do something else entirely.

Kepler
03-23-2016, 02:53 PM
It's a perennial speculation. The summary of about ten thousand prior discussions is:

1. It will never happen.

2. Which is a good thing because it's a stupid idea that helps nobody.

3. Goto 1.

Ivan Lennon
03-23-2016, 02:57 PM
If they wanted to go alone, I suspect they might have done so by now. I don't really have a good grasp on why they haven't/don't/won't, though, much less would I have an idea of why that could possibly change in the future.

At the end of the day, I suppose they're staying with the ECAC until the non-Ivies decide to do something else entirely.

To the best of my knowledge the non Ivies - excluding perhaps Quinnipiac - in the ECAC (CCT, SLU, Union, Colgate and RPI) have no interest whatsoever in severing ties w/ the Ivies w/ whom they share a common philosophy and culture.Not to mention benefitting from the Ivy imprimatur
I can only foresee a breakup coming at the Ivies instigation which could conceivably lead to a NY hockey conference of the Liberty teams, Colgate, RIT, Niagara and Canisius. All conjecture

St. Clown
03-23-2016, 02:57 PM
The Ivy League schools refuse to stand alone together.

ExileOnDaytonStreet
03-23-2016, 02:59 PM
2. Which is a good thing because it's a stupid idea that helps nobody.

It gets an extra autobid.

There's the whole "lost rivalries" angle, but that depends entirely on the "how" and "who" of your non-conference scheduling. Beyond that, what do you lose beyond seeing each other in the conference tournament?

I feel like its decidedly less stupid than what happened to the old WCHA. An Ivy/ECAC break would be considerably more clean.

LordofBrewtown
03-23-2016, 03:06 PM
It gets an extra autobid.


That's why, if I was a leader at one of those schools/conference, I'd push for a contract signed by all the schools that allows you to keep the scheduling (can still play each other); but split into 2 separate conferences/get the extra auto-bid.

There's no reason they would have to stop playing each other. Make it legal to address concerns anyone has. Put in a stipulation that if a program drops hockey, you merge back together. I don't see the downside.

St. Clown
03-23-2016, 03:10 PM
Whichever school that got the final at-large bid to the tourney, that school wants people to shut up about forming a new Ivy League hockey conference and their auto-bid having ways. They see a lot of downside to this decision.

goblue78
03-23-2016, 03:11 PM
The Ivies are tightly constrained on their ability to schedule OOC games. Even so, they have often opened with nonConference games against each other, which constrict their OOC abilities even more. But in a year in which the ECAC does well out of conference, this *helps* the Ivies. Cornell, for example, with a sub-.500 ECAC record (counting the QPac sweep in the playoffs) still almost made the tournament field. When ECAC records outside the conference are undistinguished, the short OOC Ivy records hurt unless you schedule and beat really good teams. But all this means is that the Ivy League has the incentive to see the whole league do well OOC, as they did this year.

FreshFish
03-23-2016, 03:15 PM
That's why, if I was a leader at one of those schools/conference, I'd push for a contract signed by all the schools that allows you to keep the scheduling (can still play each other); but split into 2 separate conferences/get the extra auto-bid.

There's no reason they would have to stop playing each other. Make it legal to address concerns anyone has. Put in a stipulation that if a program drops hockey, you merge back together. I don't see the downside.

If a whole bunch of conferences all decided to re-organize into 6/7-team conferences specifically in order to get the auto-bid, that could fill half the playoff field right there.

Kepler
03-23-2016, 03:20 PM
There's the whole "lost rivalries" angle, but that depends entirely on the "how" and "who" of your non-conference scheduling. Beyond that, what do you lose beyond seeing each other in the conference tournament?

I think the ECAC and HE are a good indication of what happens to rivalries after a split. In short: unless you share the same city, they die.

The other reason why it's not appetizing is the rivalries of the ECAC paradoxically cut across the Ivy/Empire (remember that old timers?) divide. e.g., Harvard and Cornell care a lot about the North Country and not a whit about Brown and Princeton.

The other other reason is that NC scheduling is a major PITA as it is. You really prefer a larger conference to lock in stability for your whole conference membership. The weaker teams are at an enormous disadvantage in scheduling, either denied entirely NC games against quality opponents (who are fighting to keep their RPICH high) or condemned to always be on the road. This perpetuates a vicious circle.

On the surface you'd think Cornell, Harvard and maybe Yale would love a free third of an auto-bid, but the withering away of the lesser members would eventually hurt them too and send the whole thing into a death spiral.

tl; dr: We did this already when HE split and it was awful and the ECAC almost went under. Let's not do that again.

Kepler
03-23-2016, 03:22 PM
That's why, if I was a leader at one of those schools/conference, I'd push for a contract signed by all the schools that allows you to keep the scheduling (can still play each other); but split into 2 separate conferences/get the extra auto-bid.

There's no reason they would have to stop playing each other. Make it legal to address concerns anyone has. Put in a stipulation that if a program drops hockey, you merge back together. I don't see the downside.

"Allows" yes. But the only way it's a net gain is if you all keep the same schedule, and I can't believe the NC$$ wouldn't see that and basically say, "yeah, no, you guys aren't a conference, you're a division within a conference. No extra auto-bid for you."

LordofBrewtown
03-23-2016, 04:41 PM
"Allows" yes. But the only way it's a net gain is if you all keep the same schedule, and I can't believe the NC$$ wouldn't see that and basically say, "yeah, no, you guys aren't a conference, you're a division within a conference. No extra auto-bid for you."

But, would the NCAA really do that? I'm thinking back to when Hockey East and the WCHA had the cross-scheduling - they still each received auto-bids, right? I know that was a while ago/different era; but...

ExileOnDaytonStreet
03-23-2016, 04:43 PM
Well, this would be a lot more obvious of an autobid-grab than the cross-scheduling ever was...

Dutchman
03-23-2016, 05:15 PM
It's a perennial speculation. The summary of about ten thousand prior discussions is:

1. It will never happen.

2. Which is a good thing because it's a stupid idea that helps nobody.

3. Goto 1.

Listen to Kepler. He is 100% correct. Nothing is going to happen. The ECAC has never been in a better position. The coaches are some of the very very very best but they are not valued just on wins and losses. The teams are very competitive. 9/12 ECAC teams finished over .500. As hard as it is to believe, winning and money are not paramount. Many of the teams have been competing with each other forever. None of the forces that drove to the creation of the BIG are there. Its fun to speculate but there are many synergies between the Ivies and friends. Lots of shared values. For hockey players, the student in student-athlete comes first as does preparation for a non-hockey career.

Ivan Lennon
03-23-2016, 05:48 PM
Listen to Kepler. He is 100% correct. Nothing is going to happen. The ECAC has never been in a better position. The coaches are some of the very very very best but they are not valued just on wins and losses. The teams are very competitive. 9/12 ECAC teams finished over .500. As hard as it is to believe, winning and money are not paramount. Many of the teams have been competing with each other forever. None of the forces that drove to the creation of the BIG are there. Its fun to speculate but there is a great deal of synergies between the Ivies and friends. Lots of shared values. For hockey players, the student in student-athlete comes first as does preparation for a non-hockey career.

Well said! I would like to think that my alma mater always places emphasis on the "student-athlete" and is supportive of its coaches in all sports - some serving in excess of a 1/4 century. We certainly like to win but we are equally proud of the men (and women) who go on to success, not only in professional hockey as players, coaches and owners, but in life. It will always be a struggle to go to the NCAA's - let alone the ECAC Final Four- but when we do we like to think that we have done it the right way

MarkEagleUSA
03-23-2016, 06:54 PM
Well said! I would like to think that my alma mater always places emphasis on the "student-athlete" and is supportive of its coaches in all sports - some serving in excess of a 1/4 century. We certainly like to win but we are equally proud of the men (and women) who go on to success, not only in professional hockey as players, coaches and owners, but in life. It will always be a struggle to go to the NCAA's - let alone the ECAC Final Four- but when we do we like to think that we have done it the right waySurprisingly, I think that's the same sentiment at Quinnipiac. Sure, they use hockey to "sell" the school, but John Lahey is squarely focused on academics first. That's why they went full steam ahead with things like their medical school and engineering program.

I say all this purely as a fan and not an alumnus. I have no real ties to QU other than being a huge fan of the hockey team. Personally, I don't think HE is right for us at this time. I really like being the big fish in a small pond right now and want to ride that wave as far as it will take me. Love us or hate us, I think the ECAC is better off with QU than without.

mookie1995
03-23-2016, 09:52 PM
Was Drew Barrymore legal when she played poison ivy??

LTsatch
03-23-2016, 10:49 PM
Was Drew Barrymore legal when she played poison ivy??

More like Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver. Then, as the years go on will end up getting raped on a pool table in New Bedfa.

mookie1995
03-23-2016, 10:58 PM
More like Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver. Then, as the years go on will end up getting raped on a pool table in New Bedfa.

Mookie was always a Tatum o'neal camper over Jodie