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Leather helmet
11-23-2015, 07:29 PM
If I had put down $1 in Vegas before the season to name the top 8 scorers in Div 1 at Thanksgiving, I would get back about $1.02. It's remarkable how unremarkable that list is. Everyone you would have expected has risen to the top, and there is a direct correlation between having top scorers on the roster and having success as a team.

There is not the same correlation on the men's side between leading scorers and top teams. My guess is that the women's game is still evolving and is more dependent on individuals for team success than men's hockey is. You can certainly get to the second tier by playing good team defense and opportunistic offense, but the takeaway for me, if I were a coach: remember to recruit outstanding players.

123kidd
11-23-2015, 07:45 PM
Remember to recruit outstanding players...
Genius!

pokechecker
11-23-2015, 08:35 PM
If I had put down $1 in Vegas before the season to name the top 8 scorers in Div 1 at Thanksgiving, I would get back about $1.02. It's remarkable how unremarkable that list is. Everyone you would have expected has risen to the top,
rather than put money down in Vegas, you should have made a bet with Katey Stone, there are at least 3 on the list that apparently has surprised her

ARM
11-23-2015, 08:50 PM
There is still more than one way to achieve success. You can go pretty far down any scoring list before "Bemidji State" or even "Harvard" appears. Both show up much quicker in the goaltending stats.

Leather helmet
11-23-2015, 09:22 PM
There is still more than one way to achieve success. You can go pretty far down any scoring list before "Bemidji State" or even "Harvard" appears. Both show up much quicker in the goaltending stats.

I agree that one route to the top of the second tier is goaltending and team defense. However, if you want to make the leap to the first tier, history suggests you need top-end scoring. Look at UND before and after the arrival of the Lam sisters. Look at Lindenwood before and after the arrival of Nicole Hensley, a very good goaltender. I choose the Lam sisters.

Eeyore
11-23-2015, 09:26 PM
However, if you want to make the leap to the first tier, history suggests you need top-end scoring.

To leap to the top tier, history suggests that you need a large and positive goal differential. It doesn't matter much, if at all, whether you accomplish that through offense or defense. The thing is, there are diminishing returns to attempting to become better at either, so most of the very best teams are very good at both.

Leather helmet
11-23-2015, 09:31 PM
To leap to the top tier, history suggests that you need a large and positive goal differential. It doesn't matter much, if at all, whether you accomplish that through offense or defense. The thing is, there are diminishing returns to attempting to become better at either, so most of the very best teams are very good at both.

My original point was not to say if you hire a couple of goal scorers, you will win championships. I realize that behind the titles are a bunch of Bozeks and Ambrozes and Ratys and Vetters as well. However, my original point was to note the positive correlation between success on the ice in women's hockey with top-end scoring, and the lack of similar correlation in men's hockey. Until the Bemidjis or Harvards start winning titles, that correlation will stand.

ne7minder
11-23-2015, 09:48 PM
. . . However, my original point was to note the positive correlation between success on the ice in women's hockey with top-end scoring, and the lack of similar correlation in men's hockey. . .

My guess is that the correlation is not there in the men's game because of the brutality that is allowed. I remember John Pohl not being able to raise his arms after a game because of the number of slashes across the forearms he had taken during the game. That sort of crap prevents the best scorers from working their magic and is not as prevalent in the women's game, hence the difference.

I thought Yale needed a scoring threat on their second line, they have 2 players at least equal to BSU's Anderson but after that not much. BSU is in the same boat. So, yeah, if they could get more reliable scoring and continue to play the way they do they would loft some hardware. But I'm not convinced many snipers would be willing to sacrifice their goal totals on a maybe.

hab
11-23-2015, 09:59 PM
Yes, there are many different ways to win...top scoring...top goaltending...top defence. But the biggest difference between the men's and women's games at this point is still that on any given night, in the women's game there is a greater talent spread between the top 5 players on the ice and the rest, than there is in the men's game. But that gap is closing as the women's game is maturing very rapidly. In the meantime, the recruiting battle for those players who can have the potential to play for the US and Canadian national teams is what it is all about in women's hockey. You can be competitive without winning that battle but you can't be a top 5 team.

ARM
11-24-2015, 10:49 AM
Look at UND before and after the arrival of the Lam sisters. Look at Lindenwood before and after the arrival of Nicole Hensley, a very good goaltender. I choose the Lam sisters.That's not exactly comparing apples to apples. UND before the Lams was much farther along, having hit double digits in wins in each of the two seasons before they arrived. Lindenwood didn't have a single win against a full-time D-I opponent when Hensley arrived, and had lost some games to average D-III teams. Plus, you're adding a pair of players with Olympic experience to one roster and one true freshman to the other.

I'm not disagreeing at all that having top scorers makes a huge difference to a team or that a team needs scoring to compete for a title. However, impact players can appear at any position.

shelfit
11-26-2015, 12:28 PM
That's not exactly comparing apples to apples. UND before the Lams was much farther along, having hit double digits in wins in each of the two seasons before they arrived. Lindenwood didn't have a single win against a full-time D-I opponent when Hensley arrived, and had lost some games to average D-III teams. Plus, you're adding a pair of players with Olympic experience to one roster and one true freshman to the other.

I'm not disagreeing at all that having top scorers makes a huge difference to a team or that a team needs scoring to compete for a title. However, impact players can appear at any position.

There's no set formula but getting a few snipers ALWAYS helps to turn a program around. Goaltending alone will NEVER be enough. See Union for proof of that. Teams that can score 3 or 4 goals a game are usually in the top half of their league. Those that can't score 3 goals a game usually struggle all season long. You don't need to look at more statistics than that.

ARM
11-26-2015, 01:44 PM
There's no set formula but getting a few snipers ALWAYS helps to turn a program around. Goaltending alone will NEVER be enough.There again, you're adding several players. I agree, that if you add more quality players, that's better than adding one.