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Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

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  • Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

    This one came up over beers recently while watching the Stanley Cup playoffs at a sports bar near UNO's new arena (Baxter Arena) with some other UNO fans I ran into there. It got started after a discussion about how the Lightning ban ANY opposing team gear from their building. That conversation then morphed into what has become this thread topic.

    The general consensus was that if this doesn't happen then the NCAA edict requiring UND to change the name in the first place becomes something of a mockery and would outright encourage their fans to continue to do this despite whatever name change is coming.

    Another school of thought was that UND, itself, might even lead the way here and ban the practice in their own arena to lead the way. Sadly, the rationale postulated at the table for this one wasn't that UND would necessarily do this for altruistic reasons (although they would presumably say it was) but, rather, for financial ones, since such a ban would seemingly drive a bigger surge in sales of "new" North Dakota gear to their fanbase. If you can't wear banned gear you have to wear something else, obviously.

    The conversation went off in this direction because it wasn't lost on any of us how much Fighting Sioux gear is still worn by North Dakota fan (albeit, I readily acknowledge I don't know the extent of their options right now since they are in limbo status). When they were here in late January, it was a rare green-glad person, indeed, that didn't have the logo or the word "Sioux" on their person, somewhere. I mean, I even saw Fighting Sioux gear at the NCAA Regional at Notre Dame while North Dakota was playing at the Fargo NCAA regional.

    Since the NCAA has been so militant about eradicating Indian mascots here and at other schools (with the exception of the 5 schools that were granted waivers after approval of their nicknames by the Indians involved) the thinking was that they might subsequently attempt to make people showing up in Fighting Sioux gear in the future the functional and social equivalent of showing up in Klan gear (which literally happened at a high school hockey game played at the Ralph in February of 2013, incidentally) and unilaterally ban it from all NCAA arenas.

    This would seem to me to to be a rather unique situation in all these mascot changes that have occurred since the 2005 NCAA edict on Indian mascots and the one with arguably the most acrimony involved.

    Of particular interest to me is how North Dakota fans might feel about this and what they think. Has there been any discussion there on this topic, already, amongst you NoDaks/Sundogs/Fighting Hawks/North Stars/Roughriders?

  • #2
    Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

    In large part, the Tampa ban was a response to incidents like the near-deadly beating of the Giants fan in Dodger Stadium (In Nashville, it seemed more about maintaining a home ice edge, but in Tampa for the finals that certainly wasn't a concern). To ban Sioux apparel, on the other hand, just seems like a bunch of people getting on their moral high horse. If the NCAA wants to do that, I guess the courts say they can, since membership in the NCAA is "voluntary." But I don't know why a school would want to follow the NCAA in their sanctimoniousness.

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    • #3
      Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

      This would be far too complicated for the pea-brains at the NCAA to implement but lets assume it does. So fans of schools like UND would not be allowed to wear their team's Native American gear, what about fans of schools like Marquette or Miami, who changed their nickname before all this hoopla began? Would they be allowed to wear their team's Native American gear? Why or why not?
      Hollywood Hair Care Tip for Infinity (Directly from Hollywood himself)
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      • #4
        Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

        Originally posted by Dirty View Post
        This would be far too complicated for the pea-brains at the NCAA to implement but lets assume it does. So fans of schools like UND would not be allowed to wear their team's Native American gear, what about fans of schools like Marquette or Miami, who changed their nickname before all this hoopla began? Would they be allowed to wear their team's Native American gear? Why or why not?
        Is there still a large component of Marquette fans or Miami fans that still wear their "old" gear, (or want to?)? I don't know the answer to that one.

        That said, my guess about North Dakota fans is that there will be a contingent that outright ignore any mascot change and don't even acknowledge that it has occurred. The mascot isn't even being totally eradicated from their own arena. Ask South Carolinian's how they felt about the Confederate flag (up until about 3 weeks ago, anyway).

        I don't know what would be complex about the NCAA (or, any individual school so motivated) issuing an edict saying "Anyone presenting themselves at the gate to an NCAA event wearing Fighting Sioux monikered apparel will denied entry to the venue".
        Last edited by Red Cows; 07-28-2015, 01:26 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

          I don't think the UND can make a decision on what's worn in the Ralph.
          "My greatest achievement."
          Dirty on getting me suspended from USCHO.

          I'm not an alcoholic! I'm an independent beer taster for Anheuser Busch.

          Happy~Smelling like a warm turd sandwich since 11/15/07.

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          • #6
            Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

            Originally posted by darker98 View Post
            I don't think the UND can make a decision on what's worn in the Ralph.
            Sure they can.

            Take a look at the small print on the back of ANY ticket you buy to any sporting event.

            They are all variations on the same theme and they can deny you entry for just about anything.

            The back of a UNO ticket, verbatim:

            "The holder agrees to abide by all the rules, regulations, and policies established by the facility."

            This isn't a First Amendment issue. You are in the venue subject to the terms and conditions established by the seller of event tickets prior to you buying them. You acquiesce by making the ticket purchase.

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            • #7
              Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

              Originally posted by Red Cows View Post
              Has there been any discussion there on this topic, already, amongst you NoDaks/Sundogs/Fighting Hawks/North Stars/Roughriders?
              No.
              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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              • #8
                Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                No.
                Before we get too far into this, for the record, I'd like to say that I haven't exactly formulated my own actual opinion on this topic.

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                • #9
                  Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                  Originally posted by Red Cows View Post
                  Sure they can.

                  Take a look at the small print on the back of ANY ticket you buy to any sporting event.

                  They are all variations on the same theme and they can deny you entry for just about anything.

                  The back of a UNO ticket, verbatim:

                  "The holder agrees to abide by all the rules, regulations, and policies established by the facility."

                  This isn't a First Amendment issue. You are in the venue subject to the terms and conditions established by the seller of event tickets prior to you buying them. You acquiesce by making the ticket purchase.
                  As far as I know UND doesn't own the Ralph.
                  "My greatest achievement."
                  Dirty on getting me suspended from USCHO.

                  I'm not an alcoholic! I'm an independent beer taster for Anheuser Busch.

                  Happy~Smelling like a warm turd sandwich since 11/15/07.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                    Originally posted by Red Cows View Post
                    Is there still a large component of Marquette fans or Miami fans that still wear their "old" gear, (or want to?)? I don't know the answer to that one.

                    I don't know what would be complex about the NCAA (or, any individual school so motivated) issuing an edict saying "Anyone presenting themselves at the gate to an NCAA event wearing Fighting Sioux monikered apparel will denied entry to the venue".
                    From what I've gathered for Marquette, there is.

                    It would be pretty ridiculous to say UND fans can't wear their gear but Miami fans can wear theirs. Why would the NCAA allow one school's fans to wear whatever they please but not allow another? If Native American mascots are bad, then why make exceptions? This is of course excluding the exceptions the NCAA has already made for FSU, CMU, Utah, etc.

                    But then again, this is the NCAA who is never consistent about anything, so whatever. It would be a great move too. UND fans literally sell out the NCAA's regional in under a minute last year and the NCAA thanks them for the money by banning the fans from wearing Sioux gear. Thankfully I think the NCAA has better things to do then worry about this. Actually, they obviously do have better things to do and I think even they realize this.

                    Another question, what Sioux stuff would I not be allowed to wear? I have jerseys that have the Bennet Brien logo, geometric logo and Blackhawk logo. Would these all not be allowed? What if I wore a Chicago Blackhawks jersey? Would that not be allowed either? It's not Sioux apparel.
                    Last edited by Dirty; 07-28-2015, 02:03 PM.
                    Hollywood Hair Care Tip for Infinity (Directly from Hollywood himself)
                    when its minus 20 and u have to go outside.. make sure u wear a winter hat as the mohawk does not enjoy the winter weathe(r)
                    Hollywood Amazingness

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                    • #11
                      Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                      Originally posted by darker98 View Post
                      As far as I know UND doesn't own the Ralph.
                      That is correct. It is owned by the Engelstad Foundation who own the land it sits on and the arena, itself, which they lease to the university for a buck a year.

                      What the politics of this particular hypothetical "situation" might be between the school and the Foundation would be an interesting question, to say the very least.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                        Originally posted by Dirty View Post
                        From what I've gathered for Marquette, there is.

                        It would be pretty ridiculous to say UND fans can't wear their gear but Miami fans can wear theirs. Why would the NCAA allow one school's fans to wear whatever they please but not allow another? If Native American mascots are bad, then why make exceptions? This is of course excluding the exceptions the NCAA has already made for FSU, CMU, Utah, etc.

                        But then again, this is the NCAA who is never consistent about anything, so whatever. It would be a great move too. UND fans literally sell out the NCAA's regional in under a minute last year and the NCAA thanks them for the money by banning the fans from wearing Sioux gear. Thankfully I think the NCAA has better things to do then worry about this. Actually, they obviously do have better things to do and I think even they realize this.
                        As I said, I don't know, definitively, to what extent other former Indian mascot schools fanbases currently do or don't wear their old gear.

                        However, if the NCAA has banned Indian mascots (outside the 5 exemptions they have allowed), it would seem disingenuous and hypocritical for the NCAA to then still allow those school's fans to attend NCAA events, either en masse, or, even just a fan here or a fan there, and continue to wear this old apparel. I mean, you're either "for it, or, agin' it".

                        Of course, hypocrisy where the NCAA is concerned is certainly nothing new.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                          Originally posted by Red Cows View Post
                          That is correct. It is owned by the Engelstad Foundation who own the land it sits on and the arena, itself, which they lease to the university for a buck a year.

                          What the politics of this particular hypothetical "situation" might be between the school and the Foundation would be an interesting question, to say the very least.
                          True. I don't like this hypothetical situation.
                          "My greatest achievement."
                          Dirty on getting me suspended from USCHO.

                          I'm not an alcoholic! I'm an independent beer taster for Anheuser Busch.

                          Happy~Smelling like a warm turd sandwich since 11/15/07.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                            Originally posted by Red Cows View Post
                            As I said, I don't know, definitively, to what extent other former Indian mascot schools fanbases currently do or don't wear their old gear.

                            However, if the NCAA has banned Indian mascots (outside the 5 exemptions they have allowed), it would seem disingenuous and hypocritical for the NCAA to then still allow those school's fans to attend NCAA events, either en masse, or, even just a fan here or a fan there, and continue to wear this old apparel. I mean, you're either "for it, or, agin' it".

                            Of course, hypocrisy where the NCAA is concerned is certainly nothing new.
                            We didn't have to change the banners or take down historical pictures either.
                            "My greatest achievement."
                            Dirty on getting me suspended from USCHO.

                            I'm not an alcoholic! I'm an independent beer taster for Anheuser Busch.

                            Happy~Smelling like a warm turd sandwich since 11/15/07.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Should UND fans wearing Fighting Sioux gear be denied admission to NCAA arenas?

                              Originally posted by Red Cows View Post
                              That is correct. It is owned by the Engelstad Foundation who own the land it sits on and the arena, itself, which they lease to the university for a buck a year.

                              What the politics of this particular hypothetical "situation" might be between the school and the Foundation would be an interesting question, to say the very least.
                              Be careful about the assumptions you make regarding the state action requirement that is a threshold question in bill of rights issues. Burton v. Wilmington Parking Authority is old law and possibly not good anymore, but dealt with a relationship between the state and a private lessee in the context of a state action issue. That was a reverse situation from the Ralph situation you bring up--the state owned the building and leased part of it to a private party that refused service to black people--but it does illustrate that there is not always a simple answer to the question whether an action can be attributed to the gubmint.

                              Now, there are probably first amendment cases covering this issue for venues used for college sports, but I wouldn't know. Just trying to muddy things up a little.

                              I definitely think it was time to change the name, and I won't be upset whichever name they choose. A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet.

                              And we do smell sweet.
                              Last edited by burd; 07-28-2015, 04:02 PM.

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