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C-H-C
06-04-2015, 06:51 PM
Are you arguing that recruiting has been better and UNH has been better with Borek than it was with McCloskey? The list of recruits you attribute to Borek is nice, except very few are at the level of the elite McCloskey recruits and many are huge question marks still. The bigger issue at UNH since Borek's arrival has been putting together complete rosters - no question that every year they've had a handful of very good to great players, but the consistent depth of the past has not been there and its been reflected.

Borek was at UNH for 14 years and UNH's recruiting and success has trended backwards since his arrival. I have NO idea how much of that fault lies with him, but it is what it is. Since his arrival I've heard a lot of excuses as to why UNH can't compete (see the jumbotron as savior discussions) and I haven't agreed with any of them. The right recruiter can put UNH back on top of HE and in the picture for National contention.

Most of my complaints about UNH recruiting have revolved around the forwards. Lets compare the career stats of the top-10 forwards in 2002-03 (Borek's first year) vs. 2014-15 (Borek's last year).

2002-03
Lanny Gare - 137 GP, 48 G, 142 PTS
Colin Hemingway- 139 GP, 67 G, 147 PTS
Steve Saviano - 139 GP, 50 G, 117 PTS
Sean Collins - 164 GP, 77 G, 183 PTS
Jim Abbott - 141 GP, 38 G, 94 PTS
Preston Callendar - 149 GP, 62 G, 130 PTS
Nathan Martz - 137 GP, 25 G, 82 PTS
Josh Prudden - 131 GP, 33 G, 73 PTS
Justin Aikins - 154 GP, 27 G, 103 PTS
Patrick Foley - 143 GP, 23 G, 47 PTS

2014-15
Tyler Kelleher - 76 GP, 23 G, 58 PTS*
Grayson Downing - 144 GP, 56 G, 112 PTS
Matt Willows - 130 GP, 45 G, 90 PTS
Andrew Poturalski - 40 GP, 14 G, 29 PTS*
Casey Thrush - 151 GP, 20 G, 63 PTS
Dan Correale - 109 GP, 11 G, 39 PTS*
Warren Foegel - 34 GP, 5 G, 16 PTS*
Shane Eiserman - 35 GP, 4 G, 15 PTS*
Kyle Smith - 73 GP, 6 G, 19 PTS*
Collin MacDonald - 51 GP, 5 G, 10 PTS*

Borek leaving is a non-issue for me, he didn't get enough top talent or enough depth, especially lately (good for him if he can do that at PC) - for UNH its all about the next guy (Souza or otherwise) and whether he can do the job at a higher level...

* obviously some of the current players have seasons ahead of them to build career totals - but aside from Kelleher & Poturalski who ends up in the same sphere as the players from 2002-03?? Downing probably belongs, but not near the top with Gare, Hemingway, Collins & Saviano. Willows was Prudden with a lot of first-line opportunity, instead of a third-line career. Foley had something like 21 knee surgeries limiting his point total...

You've been consistent in your belief that Coach Borek was not an effective recruiter. It's hard to reconcile that opinion with Coach Leaman's apparent confidence in Borek's ability.

An alternative opinion, expressed by Stevie Moses when I interviewed him is:

"I think Coach Borek is a great recruiter and a good assessor of talent...My Dad spoke to Scotty a lot (during the recruiting process) and he and I trusted the UNH coaches."

Chuck Murray
06-04-2015, 07:27 PM
Are you arguing that recruiting has been better and UNH has been better with Borek than it was with McCloskey? The list of recruits you attribute to Borek is nice, except very few are at the level of the elite McCloskey recruits and many are huge question marks still. The bigger issue at UNH since Borek's arrival has been putting together complete rosters - no question that every year they've had a handful of very good to great players, but the consistent depth of the past has not been there and its been reflected.

Borek was at UNH for 14 years and UNH's recruiting and success has trended backwards since his arrival. I have NO idea how much of that fault lies with him, but it is what it is. Since his arrival I've heard a lot of excuses as to why UNH can't compete (see the jumbotron as savior discussions) and I haven't agreed with any of them. The right recruiter can put UNH back on top of HE and in the picture for National contention.

Most of my complaints about UNH recruiting have revolved around the forwards. Lets compare the career stats of the top-10 forwards in 2002-03 (Borek's first year) vs. 2014-15 (Borek's last year).

2002-03
Lanny Gare - 137 GP, 48 G, 142 PTS
Colin Hemingway- 139 GP, 67 G, 147 PTS
Steve Saviano - 139 GP, 50 G, 117 PTS
Sean Collins - 164 GP, 77 G, 183 PTS
Jim Abbott - 141 GP, 38 G, 94 PTS
Preston Callendar - 149 GP, 62 G, 130 PTS
Nathan Martz - 137 GP, 25 G, 82 PTS
Josh Prudden - 131 GP, 33 G, 73 PTS
Justin Aikins - 154 GP, 27 G, 103 PTS
Patrick Foley - 143 GP, 23 G, 47 PTS

2014-15
Tyler Kelleher - 76 GP, 23 G, 58 PTS*
Grayson Downing - 144 GP, 56 G, 112 PTS
Matt Willows - 130 GP, 45 G, 90 PTS
Andrew Poturalski - 40 GP, 14 G, 29 PTS*
Casey Thrush - 151 GP, 20 G, 63 PTS
Dan Correale - 109 GP, 11 G, 39 PTS*
Warren Foegel - 34 GP, 5 G, 16 PTS*
Shane Eiserman - 35 GP, 4 G, 15 PTS*
Kyle Smith - 73 GP, 6 G, 19 PTS*
Collin MacDonald - 51 GP, 5 G, 10 PTS*

Borek leaving is a non-issue for me, he didn't get enough top talent or enough depth, especially lately (good for him if he can do that at PC) - for UNH its all about the next guy (Souza or otherwise) and whether he can do the job at a higher level...

* obviously some of the current players have seasons ahead of them to build career totals - but aside from Kelleher & Poturalski who ends up in the same sphere as the players from 2002-03?? Downing probably belongs, but not near the top with Gare, Hemingway, Collins & Saviano. Willows was Prudden with a lot of first-line opportunity, instead of a third-line career. Foley had something like 21 knee surgeries limiting his point total...

It's hard to disagree with 90% of what Dan's said above. And I too have no idea how much of the regression over the last decade plus lands on his plate, as opposed to his bosses' plates (including those who set broader policy at the school).

But it's exciting to see UNH getting younger - yet experienced - coaches on board to handle recruiting.

If someone had told me two years ago Coach Umile would be adding two relatively young alums to his staff, and one of them wasn't going to be Pat Foley ... :eek: :confused: :eek: ... hey, just goes to show, sometimes you never know, good luck to Stewie and Sousie. :D

Dan
06-04-2015, 08:00 PM
You've been consistent in your belief that Coach Borek was not an effective recruiter. It's hard to reconcile that opinion with Coach Leaman's apparent confidence in Borek's ability.

An alternative opinion, expressed by Stevie Moses when I interviewed him is:

"I think Coach Borek is a great recruiter and a good assessor of talent...My Dad spoke to Scotty a lot (during the recruiting process) and he and I trusted the UNH coaches."

As glad as I am that the players who chose UNH think highly of Scott Borek - I'm going to continue to take a more objective look and observe the results on the ice. You continue to defend UNH's staff no matter the result. If you truly believe that everything at UNH is top-end, than how do you explain the depths to which UNH has sunk? Being objective and analytical doesn't make you (or me) a bad fan...

Congrats to PC and Leaman on their National Championship - but I'm not going to suddenly change my opinion based on factual results and what I've seen, just because HE hired Borek. Leaman's team was a four-seed in the tournament and couldn't beat UNH in the Hockey East Quarters. He's done very well at Providence. He's not Jerry York.

Souza and Stewart may flop - but I am excited about the change, because the last handful of years the recruiting was not productive, whether you wish to admit it or not...

Chuck Murray
06-04-2015, 08:07 PM
You've been consistent in your belief that Coach Borek was not an effective recruiter. It's hard to reconcile that opinion with Coach Leaman's apparent confidence in Borek's ability.

No it isn't. Different horses for different courses. Coach Leaman now has the ultimate recruiting tool to help build the PC program further, and no - it's not Coach Borek. And no, it's not even the renovated facilities. It's the D-1 championship trophy in the trophy case, and the young head coach - er, himself - who can not only point to his own trophy in Providence, but also his role in building an earlier one out in the hockey nothingness that was Schenectady. Think about that for a minute.

Coach Leaman will effectively be the lead recruiter for the program, even if Coach Borek does 90% of the legwork. And if nothing else, Borek is an honest, diligent and experienced recruiter who can be counted on to do what he is told, like he's done the last 14 years, and probably lends some long-term stability to what could have become a recruiting merry-go-round at PC. Seems like a win-win decision for all parties involved - including PC, UNH, Coaches Leaman and Borek, Coaches Stewart and Souza, and likely Coach Umile too.


An alternative opinion, expressed by Stevie Moses when I interviewed him is:

"I think Coach Borek is a great recruiter and a good assessor of talent...My Dad spoke to Scotty a lot (during the recruiting process) and he and I trusted the UNH coaches."

Not exactly a neutral assessment and opinion there, with all due respect. It would be akin to forming an opinion on Borek and/or Umile solely from a disaffected recruit (the kid currently playing in Schenectady comes to mind quickly). I think it would be quite interesting to talk to the guys who were recruited by Borek and decided to play elsewhere WITHOUT pitching a fit to try to get a handle on why they chose against coming to UNH. We already know it's not Boston. I truly doubt it's the facility (and if it is, then I probably wouldn't want any recruit that shallow anyway). Is it the downward arc and diminishing stature of the program? Is it Coach Umile having lost some of the "it" he once had a decade or so ago? Does the program suffer from a perception they fail to develop their players for the next level (and I'm talking about where the real paychecks are - not the ECHL or some low-level Euro league)?

Those are tough questions to ask, and admittedly they are probably even tougher to try to get a worthwhile and honest answer from.

Instead, UNH seems to be working along almost what amounts to a "differential diagnosis" process, slowly but surely changing various elements in the program, and monitoring the impact of those changes. Last year, it was Coach Stewart, and now this coming season, we get to see how Coach Souza - not to mention the ridiculously overhyped jumbotron - impact on further progress with the program. And if things remain any way stuck in neutral over the next two seasons - well, that narrows down the "diagnosis" to a pretty short list, which may only include the current head coach and (arguably) the admissions/academic restrictions in place for athletic recruits.

The upcoming season was already going to be fascinating ... now it's approaching must-watch TV status.

C-H-C
06-04-2015, 08:36 PM
As glad as I am that the players who chose UNH think highly of Scott Borek - I'm going to continue to take a more objective look and observe the results on the ice. You continue to defend UNH's staff no matter the result. If you truly believe that everything at UNH is top-end, than how do you explain the depths to which UNH has sunk? Being objective and analytical doesn't make you (or me) a bad fan...

Congrats to PC and Leaman on their National Championship - but I'm not going to suddenly change my opinion based on factual results and what I've seen, just because HE hired Borek. Leaman's team was a four-seed in the tournament and couldn't beat UNH in the Hockey East Quarters. He's done very well at Providence. He's not Jerry York.

Souza and Stewart may flop - but I am excited about the change, because the last handful of years the recruiting was not productive, whether you wish to admit it or not...

Anyone who's read my posts and my blog can judge for themselves whether I'm objective. I'll admit one bias though - I've gone to almost every home game and many away games over the last 4 years and I've enjoyed myself.

In my view, UNH has strung together 3 strong recruiting classes, beginning with Kelleher's. I'm looking forward to watching the team next season.

bomberhockey
06-04-2015, 09:09 PM
Anyone who's read my posts and my blog can judge for themselves whether I'm objective. I'll admit one bias though - I've gone to almost every home game and many away games over the last 4 years and I've enjoyed myself.

In my view, UNH has strung together 3 strong recruiting classes, beginning with Kelleher's. I'm looking forward to watching the team next season.

I'm sure Scott appreciates your opinion. One of the best recruiters in the game, he kept UNH at the level they are at. He was the face of UNH hockey to recruits. He was the guy they knew ALL through the recruiting process. Ask players from other schools about him.. Ask not highly recruited players like Bobby Butler or Jacob McFlicker what they think of him. How many NHL first round draft picks did UNH have before Coach Borek, which led to an All American Defenseman and another blue chipper coming in. Imagine if Yandle had 3 years of foreign language or Bourque didn't go major junior or Laleggia de-committing where they might have been. And he did plenty behind the scenes to promote UNH. He started TeamCamp that is now being copied by other schools to get young blue chippers on campus for a week of skills and scrimmages against the best from around the country. As a friend and UNH fan I'm sad to see him leave but professionally I couldn't be happier. Ironically he's going back to where he started his career 30 years ago with Richie Umile as the other assistant to Mike McShane. Careful what you wish for Wildcats! Interesting to see how the 2 alums jockey for position to be the heir apparent, could be unsettling times at UNH.

Snively65
06-04-2015, 09:34 PM
And, "must listen Felger and Murray" radio show this coming season. :-)

So, I am taking a 'tweener position on recruiting between Dan and CHC.

McCloskey left the men's team for the 2002-03 season, so his impact on those four FFs cannot be dismissed. But, note that the 2002-03 recruiting class, which presumably was McCloskey's, was nothing to write home about: Yandle, Leach, Kolanos, and Pietrasiak. The 2003-04 recruiting class was better, with McFlikier, Winnik, and Brett Hemingway (also, Travis, Ciocco, Vinz, Hutchins, Chris Murray, Doherty, and Bucchino). Were most of these recruits also McCloskey's?

2004-05 (Borek's?): Radja, Fortunaro, Switzer, Flaishans, Pouliot, Regan

2005-06: Trevor Smith, Pollastrone, Fortney, Fritsch, Greg Collins, Charlebois, Kapstad, and Alan Thompson

Felger
06-04-2015, 09:40 PM
Can't believe you guys have wasted two pages worth of brain cells discussing coaches. Don't you guys know that coaches don't win championships but jumbotrons do?

C-H-C
06-04-2015, 09:53 PM
Can't believe you guys have wasted two pages worth of brain cells discussing coaches. Don't you guys know that coaches don't win championships but jumbotrons do?

With Chuck stepping up his game, you might want to consider playing the straight man. :)

Snively65
06-04-2015, 09:55 PM
Can't believe you guys have wasted two pages worth of brain cells discussing coaches. Don't you guys know that coaches don't win championships but jumbotrons do?

Exactly. I could not get enough of PCs jumbotron watching their basketball team while our hockey team beat the Friars in game 1 of the HEA second round.

HockeyRef
06-04-2015, 09:58 PM
Can't believe you guys have wasted two pages worth of brain cells discussing coaches. Don't you guys know that coaches don't win championships but jumbotrons do?

Haha Bingo...!

Snively65
06-04-2015, 11:47 PM
In my view, UNH has strung together 3 strong recruiting classes, beginning with Kelleher's. I'm looking forward to watching the team next season.

I agree that last year's recruiting class was fairly deep and talented; we will see about the incoming freshman class. But, beyond Kelleher, Cleland, and Maller, who else is there in that class? I realize that he whose name shall not be mentioned should have arrived with that class.

Felger
06-05-2015, 05:56 AM
Just curious whether Borek texted Kawaguchi the news and said see ya in Providence...

Hokydad
06-05-2015, 06:12 AM
At the end of the day, not one player will play at PC unless Leaman goes out and sees them and does so several times, no one is on the road more and watching more film than he is. He lives in the rinks, which I doubt Umile did. Umile would almost show up like a Senator and walk in accompanied by the assistants and check it out. Leaman is there over and over again, even on some game days, usually by himself watching the entire game.

He knows exactly what he is looking for. He is not turning that role over to anyone.

C-H-C
06-05-2015, 06:37 AM
At the end of the day, not one player will play at PC unless Leaman goes out and sees them and does so several times, no one is on the road more and watching more film than he is. He lives in the rinks, which I doubt Umile did. Umile would almost show up like a Senator and walk in accompanied by the assistants and check it out. Leaman is there over and over again, even on some game days, usually by himself watching the entire game.

He knows exactly what he is looking for. He is not turning that role over to anyone.

Or maybe he's gotten a little tired of that grind and plans to assign some of those visits over to the guy he trusts.

C-H-C
06-05-2015, 06:42 AM
Just curious whether Borek texted Kawaguchi the news and said see ya in Providence...

Kawaguchi was a target for Providence long before Miller left.

Hokydad
06-05-2015, 07:08 AM
Or maybe he's gotten a little tired of that grind and plans to assign some of those visits over to the guy he trusts.

Nope, zero chance he is slowing down
No one will be playing unless he is his guy. Yes, assistants are bird dogging all over the place and screening but no rubber stamping. Miller is one of the top guys ever, they call him the architect. Maybe he is and a good one at that but the GC of the job is Leaman and he inspects every piece of wood multiple times. The team will be Leamans. Assistants can an will come and go, Russell, Barr, Miller and so on. All very good ones. But the process, success and team is Leaman. He could have a mannequin on the bench and win

C-H-C
06-05-2015, 07:25 AM
Nope, zero chance he is slowing down
No one will be playing unless he is his guy. Yes, assistants are bird dogging all over the place and screening but no rubber stamping. Miller is one of the top guys ever, they call him the architect. Maybe he is and a good one at that but the GC of the job is Leaman and he inspects every piece of wood multiple times. The team will be Leamans. Assistants can an will come and go, Russell, Barr, Miller and so on. All very good ones. But the process, success and team is Leaman. He could have a mannequin on the bench and win

He didn't look like a mannequin behind the bench during the three-game HE quarterfinals. ;) But seriously, Leaman could have easily won the Penrose last year.

C-H-C
06-05-2015, 08:01 AM
Listen guys, honestly ... I admire your support and all the TvR-related enthusiasm ... but the idea that a young AHL kid with minimal NHL regular season experience is going to walk off glorified IR smack dab into Game 7 of the Western Finals is a bit farfetched. He is there in case of an emergency - and maybe even to soak up the high intensity atmosphere for the future. "Emergency" does not include replacing even the muckiest journeyman 4th pairing NHL defenseman.

And even IF he does (amazingly) dress for Game 7, I'd be shocked if Quenneville gave him more than 5 minutes of spot duty in relatively safe situations. Otherwise, carry on. :) ;)

"Chicago Blackhawks rookie defenseman Trevor van Riemsdyk could return from a long absence to play in Game 2 of the Stanley Cup Finals on Saturday, coach Joel Quenneville said.

"Obviously we missed him when he got injured," Quenneville told NHL.com. "Would have been a nice evolution over the course of the season to see how that would have ended."

Said defenseman Johnny Oduya: "We saw him early in the year. He's one of those guys that I would pick that maybe could be out for a longer period of time and still come in and play very, very well. He's very smart. He's poised with the puck."

http://www.foxsports.com/nhl/story/chicago-blackhawks-tampa-bay-lightning-stanley-cup-nhl-trevor-van-riemsdyk-injury-status-060515

Hokydad
06-05-2015, 08:02 AM
He didn't look like a mannequin behind the bench during the three-game HE quarterfinals. ;) But seriously, Leaman could have easily won the Penrose last year.

Like he di a couple years ago with different assistants

one constant