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Koho
07-08-2014, 08:02 PM
Hasnt this staff earned enough clout over the years for you to trust that if they decided to bring him in they just might know what they are doing? No offense but I will trust our coaches over the NHL GMs when it comes to who should play for my favorite team.

I've trusted this staff more than most through the rough years. Never called for Lucia to be gone. But no matter how good one is at picking talent, there are always going to be misses. That was part of the problem in the lean years, along with different coach and illness to deal with. When I see a non-Minnesotan getting a spot, I prefer to see a guy coming in that everyone agrees is going to be a huge contributor, this staff and NHL staff as well. I am sure he is good, I just want him to be great.

BC has two first rounders coming in and more likely lined up in the future. If they manage to keep most of those guys more than a year, they could be formidable in the near future. On the other hand, they may be a good test of the theory many used to criticize Lucia in the days of first-rounders who didn't last long. People used to blame Lucia for not following BC's trend of small guys who stick around. Now BC has some good sized first-rounders and maybe more in the pipeline. Are any of those past Lucia recruiting critics willing to predict that BC will fall apart for following the 'MN method' of getting a bunch of first-rounders that will leave too early and ruin team chemistry?

D2D
07-08-2014, 10:41 PM
BC has two first rounders coming in and more likely lined up in the future. If they manage to keep most of those guys more than a year, they could be formidable in the near future.

BC should be very good as usual but it may take them another year beyond this coming one to be as formidable as they have been in the recent past. Unlike the Gophers they lost their top four scorers who combined for over half their goal production this past season. They will definitely need their incoming first rounders to take on bigger roles right away as freshmen than what the Gophers need from their freshmen class.

Hammy
07-09-2014, 12:40 AM
When I see a non-Minnesotan getting a spot, I prefer to see a guy coming in that everyone agrees is going to be a huge contributor, this staff and NHL staff as well. I am sure he is good, I just want him to be great.

The problem is you continually ignore the reality that there plenty of examples of undrafted guys becoming top college players. You've been given examples but then seem to ignore those facts. The NHL opinion isn't all that relevant so why make a big deal out of that? Did their opinion matter on a kid like Jack Connolly and his college success?

Frankly, it seems like you want to discount the kid simply because of where he comes from. Otherwise, why bother mentioning that he is non-MN?



BC has two first rounders coming in and more likely lined up in the future. If they manage to keep most of those guys more than a year, they could be formidable in the near future. On the other hand, they may be a good test of the theory many used to criticize Lucia in the days of first-rounders who didn't last long. People used to blame Lucia for not following BC's trend of small guys who stick around. Now BC has some good sized first-rounders and maybe more in the pipeline. Are any of those past Lucia recruiting critics willing to predict that BC will fall apart for following the 'MN method' of getting a bunch of first-rounders that will leave too early and ruin team chemistry?

It isn't a bad strategy to have some of these guys if you can keep them two or three years. But you pointed out the key factor... if a team can keep them. Most of that relies on the player's mindset. Not the coaching. Lucia happened to recruit too many guys that wanted to step to the next level ASAP. If he had landed more guys at that time that thought like Bjugstad did, nobody would have been complaining. It is high risk, high reward.

I have no problem predicting BC will fall apart in the same fashion as we did... IF a number of their guys have the same mindset we saw on our club during Kessel, EJ, etc era. But we simply don't know if those BC kids have that same mentality.

HarleyMC
07-09-2014, 02:23 AM
Well Harley, if there is one thing I think I have proven oodles of times over the years, it is that I don't heavily rely on newspaper articles or speculation when it comes my comments on such topics. They come from interacting with people that are in touch with these situations.

Yeah I noticed that.:D My point is it's clear from Rau's statement in the Strib that regardless of Grimaldi's impact or how anyone else he's competing against performs at the camp, he will take all the time he needs to assess his situation. So according to Rau (albeit in a dreaded newspaper article!), your remark, "If Grimaldi was any kind of a key factor, Rau already would have made his decision and the school would have announced it..." is not accurate.;)


Let's face it, Kyle isn't competing with just one player to be a future pro. He's competing with many guys. What one other guy does with his career isn't going to influence Kyle's choices. Look no further than his own history. I'll remind you that Kyle stuck around his HS team rather than accelerate his development at higher levels of hockey (like a number of his peers did by going to junior hockey or the USNTDP) for this very same reason. Kyle is a leader, not a follower. He's never been the type to worry about others in that way. If he comes away from the camp thinking he should go pro, I can guarantee it will be based on how he felt he performed and what FL gave him for feedback. It won't be based on what any other individual prospect is/has done.

"What one other guy does with his career isn't going to influence Kyle's choices"?? Ever heard of being "beat out" of your position by a player your size like Grimaldi, who emulates your game...only better?

I've been following the camp a bit and after Day 2 the accolades for Grimaldi are off the hook...not exactly "irrelevant". Yesterday, Rau was placed in the Group 1 with lower prospects and the top prospects were selected for Group 2 (Ekblad, Hawrlyuk, Barkov, Trocheck, Grimaldi, McCoshen, Matheson, Lammikko, Kosov, Weegar, etc. with Cowley and Brittain in the nets).

Some responses from Cat's fans in attendance:


That group (Group 2) was so much fun to watch... From the first group what really caught my eye was Wegworth, for what I thought was a tough guy, is actually a pretty decent player. That Fagerblom actually looked pretty good, so big wow..Not quite as quick as markstrom, but he wasn't slow and used his size well. Kyle Rau when I see him at these camps always sort of looks like he's loafing around like Versteeg would do when he was here, not a trait I really like. Grimaldi is gonna be a good one. Lots more, but wanna see more tomorrow before I get more detailed.


In group one, there weren't really any of our top guys, save from Rau, who as mentioned by G4P (above), looked invisible.

Most Cat's pundits agreed that Florida needed 2 top six forwards and depth at defense. The Cat's are currently stacked with talented young forwards, and they signed four more during free agency. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what Rau thinks, it's what Florida decides is in their best interest financially and based upon their current and future need. So far, I suspect Rau's performance at the camp is not turning the heads that really matter.

mnstate0fhockey
07-09-2014, 03:02 AM
Yeah I noticed that.:D My point is it's clear from Rau's statement in the Strib that regardless of Grimaldi's impact or how anyone else he's competing against performs at the camp, he will take all the time he needs to assess his situation. So according to Rau (albeit in a dreaded newspaper article!), your remark, "If Grimaldi was any kind of a key factor, Rau already would have made his decision and the school would have announced it..." is not accurate.;)



"What one other guy does with his career isn't going to influence Kyle's choices"?? Ever heard of being "beat out" of your position by a player your size like Grimaldi, who emulates your game...only better?

I've been following the camp a bit and after Day 2 the accolades for Grimaldi are off the hook...not exactly "irrelevant". Yesterday, Rau was placed in the Group 1 with lower prospects and the top prospects were selected for Group 2 (Ekblad, Hawrlyuk, Barkov, Trocheck, Grimaldi, McCoshen, Matheson, Lammikko, Kosov, Weegar, etc. with Cowley and Brittain in the nets).

Some responses from Cat's fans in attendance:





Most Cat's pundits agreed that Florida needed 2 top six forwards and depth at defense. The Cat's are currently stacked with talented young forwards, and they signed four more during free agency. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what Rau thinks, it's what Florida decides is in their best interest financially and based upon their current and future need. So far, I suspect Rau's performance at the camp is not turning the heads that really matter.

You don't "beat out" other players in development camp. If he's going to "beat out" anyone, it would be in training camp and the pre-season.

I'm a big Kyle Rau fan. He's from my hometown. But I don't think he has much chance of sniffing significant NHL ice time this season.

HarleyMC
07-09-2014, 04:19 AM
You don't "beat out" other players in development camp. If he's going to "beat out" anyone, it would be in training camp and the pre-season.

I'm a big Kyle Rau fan. He's from my hometown. But I don't think he has much chance of sniffing significant NHL ice time this season.

Disagree...anytime a player has a chance to showcase his development and talent in the development camp, he's afforded an opportunity to seize the attention of the coaches and staff as a standout player and open doors.

Same thing happened to Nick Leddy in 2010:


Leddy finished out the 2010 season with the Gophers and went to the Blackhawks development camp in July. The Gophers knew he was attending the camp but fully expected him to return for his sophomore season. At the camp, however, he impressed the Blackhawks so much that they opted to give him a shot to join the team. The Stanley Cup champions would have been well above the NHL salary cap if they had kept all the players from last year’s roster, so Leddy, as a rookie, was an inexpensive cog in the reassembled team. Gophers head coach Don Lucia said in August. “Even after he was traded to Chicago, our talks with Chicago were that we’d have him for two or three years and certainly that all changed this summer, and they saw where he was strength-wise, where his skating ability [was and] how he outshined their other top prospects. They were blown away by him developmentally.

Grimaldi is also out to prove that very same thing (AT THE CAMP) that he can play in the NHL next season and he's grabbing everyone's attention:


"I've always been told to focus on the big picture and [San Antonio] is something that could happen,'' Grimaldi said. "But right now I'm not focused on that. I'm focused on making the team. I won't be shocked or upset if it doesn't happen. I'm excited. We have a good, young core group. There's a lot of opportunity.''


"He might just be that guy that says, 'you know what? Brendan Gallagher did it in Montreal and I'm not going to San Antonio','' Brian Skrudland, director of player development said. "It's on him to decide, for him to make the decisions really hard on the coaches in September and October.''

Hammy
07-09-2014, 09:47 AM
Yeah I noticed that.:D My point is it's clear from Rau's statement in the Strib that regardless of Grimaldi's impact or how anyone else he's competing against performs at the camp, he will take all the time he needs to assess his situation. So according to Rau (albeit in a dreaded newspaper article!), your remark, "If Grimaldi was any kind of a key factor, Rau already would have made his decision and the school would have announced it..." is not accurate.;)

Actually, my remark is very accurate and you are pretty much stating the same thing I did. Rau has held the same attitude about his future the entire time (meaning before and after any other player made their decision). Never once even heard another player's name mentioned as any part of the thought process for him. It is a matter of how he performs. Has nothing to do with any other player's situation. Straight from the horses mouth.


"What one other guy does with his career isn't going to influence Kyle's choices"?? Ever heard of being "beat out" of your position by a player your size like Grimaldi, who emulates your game...only better?

You act like it is just one guy that is in the way of Kyle Rau's future in Florida and therefore he is focused on that guy. That couldn't be any further from the truth. There are a lot of guys he has to compete with. It's not like there is some rule that a team can only have one smaller forward/center.

Breaking it down by how they play, Grimaldi doesn't have the same grit or defensive play that Rau has. At the same time, Rau doesn't have the explosion or finishing ability that Grimaldi has. To me, Kyle is likely no more than a bottom 6 forward on the NHL level (if he even makes it). More of a defensive guy that may give you a little offense. He thinks the game more. Grimaldi doesn't fit that mold. He's more of a boom or bust offensive guy. I think he'd get eaten up in the kind of role Kyle would be best suited for. They could co-exist on the same team if Florida felt it gave them a good chance to win. Whether they would ever think that? TBD


I've been following the camp a bit and after Day 2 the accolades for Grimaldi are off the hook...not exactly "irrelevant". Yesterday, Rau was placed in the Group 1 with lower prospects and the top prospects were selected for Group 2 (Ekblad, Hawrlyuk, Barkov, Trocheck, Grimaldi, McCoshen, Matheson, Lammikko, Kosov, Weegar, etc. with Cowley and Brittain in the nets).

Which just proves my point with various names... :D

Kyle is competing with a lot more than just one guy up front. It is an extreme stretch to think he's focused on one guy in all of this.

Hammy
07-09-2014, 10:01 AM
You don't "beat out" other players in development camp. If he's going to "beat out" anyone, it would be in training camp and the pre-season.

The development camp is about making impressions, etc. But you really don't beat out players for roles until everybody steps on the ice with the regular NHLers in training camp... then it becomes sink or swim for jobs.

Slap Shot
07-09-2014, 10:28 AM
I've trusted this staff more than most through the rough years. Never called for Lucia to be gone. But no matter how good one is at picking talent, there are always going to be misses. That was part of the problem in the lean years, along with different coach and illness to deal with. When I see a non-Minnesotan getting a spot, I prefer to see a guy coming in that everyone agrees is going to be a huge contributor, this staff and NHL staff as well. I am sure he is good, I just want him to be great.

BC has two first rounders coming in and more likely lined up in the future. If they manage to keep most of those guys more than a year, they could be formidable in the near future. On the other hand, they may be a good test of the theory many used to criticize Lucia in the days of first-rounders who didn't last long. People used to blame Lucia for not following BC's trend of small guys who stick around. Now BC has some good sized first-rounders and maybe more in the pipeline. Are any of those past Lucia recruiting critics willing to predict that BC will fall apart for following the 'MN method' of getting a bunch of first-rounders that will leave too early and ruin team chemistry?

There are going to be misses, but let them miss first. There will also be surprises. Every team needs 3rd and 4th liners btw, and they don't have to be from MN. I don't give a rip where they come from (to a point) and I'm as old school as it comes regarding Gophers hockey.

How many first rounders and draft picks do the Gophers need that they don't already have? BC isn't the only NCAA team the Gophers have to compete with, the Gophers look like they are going to be stacked next season and their current commitments beyond this season can compete with any other in the country.

I honestly think there has been some serious over-analyzing and nit-picking of the recruitment lately. If a commitment can't be viewed as the next Thomas Vanek it doesn't automatically mean they're the next Rico Pagel.

Koho
07-09-2014, 05:06 PM
The problem is you continually ignore the reality that there plenty of examples of undrafted guys becoming top college players. You've been given examples but then seem to ignore those facts. The NHL opinion isn't all that relevant so why make a big deal out of that? Did their opinion matter on a kid like Jack Connolly and his college success?

Frankly, it seems like you want to discount the kid simply because of where he comes from. Otherwise, why bother mentioning that he is non-MN?



First, I wasn't really criticizing the recruiting as I am being represented here. I am happy to wait and see how he turns out. You are reading too much into my statements. I have defended Lucia and staff in the past due to the uncertainty in getting commitments from younger players and not knowing how they will turn out. I understand this!

I am not discounting examples of undrafted players who did great at the college level either. All I have said is it gives one more confidence in a recruit coming in when the NHL also sees him as a viable player when one knows little about the player other than what one read after the person is recruited! (If you read every team quote from a pro teams once drafted, they never say "we wish we would have taken someone else". they say, 'we got a steal, can't believe he was still there...'.) Once the season starts, it won't matter to me. All I said was it gives one more confidence when a player is looked as as so good that everyone wants him. For all I know, he may turn out to be the best player in the country next year. I have confidence in the recruiting at the U. But During the summer when you are speculating on how good your team will be, any crumb (high draft picks for incoming players) can add to the fun of that speculation.

And I am not discounting him because he is non-Minnesotan. I mention it because, 1. I would know more about him if he was from MN so the draft issue wouldn't matter, (other than as a topic to pass the summer on here) and 2. While I don't insist on all Minnesotans, I would prefer to see a Minnesotan play in a spot, unless there isn't a player who can do what the non-Minnesotan can. In other words, I DO want most players to be from MN, and only get the occasional phenom or guy who you just can't find from elsewhere. I really wouldn't be as excited about an NC if it was a team made up completely of non-Minnesoatans.

So everyone understand I am not criticizing the recruiting or predicting failure. Just made the observation I would be more fired up if he were drafted relatively high!

Koho
07-09-2014, 05:28 PM
It isn't a bad strategy to have some of these guys if you can keep them two or three years. But you pointed out the key factor... if a team can keep them. Most of that relies on the player's mindset. Not the coaching. Lucia happened to recruit too many guys that wanted to step to the next level ASAP. If he had landed more guys at that time that thought like Bjugstad did, nobody would have been complaining. It is high risk, high reward.

I have no problem predicting BC will fall apart in the same fashion as we did... IF a number of their guys have the same mindset we saw on our club during Kessel, EJ, etc era. But we simply don't know if those BC kids have that same mentality.

Once again, I am not predicting anything. I think you are in too argumentative state to realize I was more trying to draw out the people who jumped all over Lucia for those recruits that left early. (Too much arguing with Harley about Rau maybe?) We are on a similar page. Lucia didn't know they were going to be one-and-dones. That is the chance one takes recruiting those players. But a lot of the critics on here and GPL said "one shouldn't go for the blue-chippers because they will leave. Instead, follow BC's lead. They are ahead of MN in recruiting strategy by getting small guys that the NHL will leave alone longer." Those critics had the hypothesis that Lucia messed up recruiting blue-chippers because they won't stay long enough. So I am pointing out to those critics that BC is now on the path that they criticized MN for. My request wasn't for someone to make a conditional prediction based on IF the players stay or not. If their hypothesis is correct, they should step up and say BC will fall apart because first rounders WILL leave and create imbalance.

I, on the other hand, believe like you that you have to take chances on these special players when they come along. Almost no one saw a Leddy leaving after a year, and a lot expected Vanek to leave after his freshman year. (Where would the U had been if they had passed on Vanek because they figured he wouldn't stay past his first year?) Some seemed to think Skjei would be gone by now too, if not after 1 year. Part of the problem with the hypothesis of avoiding high picks is it is based on a time when some of the other picks didn't pan out as well as expected and there were other issues going on. So I agree that MN should take the guys they can get if they fit. And it will be interesting to see how it works for BC (and maybe BU with a couple potential one-and-dones they might have coming in).

Then to really get the juices flowing, Tuch, being drafted by the Wild, who have loads of young talent, Harley would probably argue is likely to last more than a year at BC because of the competition ahead of him......so there is that to speculate on. And what is Milano's situation?

Koho
07-09-2014, 05:31 PM
How many first rounders and draft picks do the Gophers need that they don't already have?

7.5


BC isn't the only NCAA team the Gophers have to compete with, the Gophers look like they are going to be stacked next season and their current commitments beyond this season can compete with any other in the country.


Yes they are. We need the next NC, and the one after that, and the one after that.

I am happy about next year's team, just want complete and total domination for years to come!

Koho
07-09-2014, 07:55 PM
I honestly think there has been some serious over-analyzing and nit-picking of the recruitment COMMENTS lately.

Fixed.

All I'm sayin' is, with the class MN has lined up for this year, especially if Rau is beat out for a spot by Grimaldi, and returns, they should have an awesome team. With that in mind, I would like to think that the preseason Scooby glass rating would go from like 17% all the way to 19% if Bredstedt were a high draft pick on top of all this.

Slap Shot
07-09-2014, 08:04 PM
Fair enough, Koho.

Bonin21
07-09-2014, 08:21 PM
I honestly think there has been some serious over-analyzing and nit-picking of the recruitment lately.
Feel like I saw my screen name in here earlier. :) Any negative comments I make about recruits are because I'm a worrier, like when I saw Ambroz and Ramsey fall off the charts in their draft years. I was worried about Fasching, and look how that turned out. I mentioned it somewhere but I'm not scared to admit I was wrong about a recruit after they get the chance to prove themselves. This is how I approach the non-MN kids. I'm willing to be won over.

I'm one of the few people left that likes the all-MN idea. All-MN in this sense can mean vast majority Minnesotan. I'm 100% cool with elite kids from wherever committing. Only an idiot would complain because Jonathan Toews isn't from MN. I don't think we've ever won a title with more than three non-Minnesotans. Once we do, I'll be totally cool with 6-7 non-MN kids. Any season without a national title is a failure.

I know I'll get ****, but I think people are allowed to disagree on things. We just need to win a title so we can rub it in the faces of two sets of annoying fans and not have to talk about this stuff.

Hammy
07-09-2014, 08:30 PM
We've never won a title with more than a few non-MN because we generally haven't had to go about business that way. Especially when it was only the Gophers and UMD playing D1 in the state. It's not because we can't win that way.

If anything, the scope has changed more than ever. The doors need to be opened more. Particularly when we have a weaker birth year in the state.

EDIT - As far as Ramsey goes, I'm not sure he really fell off the charts per se. One guy vastly overrated him coming into the season (I believe it was Craig Button that had him in the top 30 early on... which made me wonder if the guy was smoking crack when he put that list together). Pretty much everybody else (especially those that are in the MN area) could see that Ramsey was going to be an effort guy (a la Serratore). He never belonged among the top rated draft prospects in the first place. Frankly, he got drafted where he really should have been ranked all along.

Hammy
07-09-2014, 08:34 PM
All I have said is it gives one more confidence in a recruit coming in when the NHL also sees him as a viable player

How did that work out with Patrick White and David Fischer? (And numerous examples of other players at other schools over the years).



2. While I don't insist on all Minnesotans, I would prefer to see a Minnesotan play in a spot, unless there isn't a player who can do what the non-Minnesotan can. In other words, I DO want most players to be from MN, and only get the occasional phenom or guy who you just can't find from elsewhere.

Which is the same attitude the coaches have. So when they go elsewhere, I tend to believe they don't see equal to better options locally. Wouldn't you say?

mnstate0fhockey
07-09-2014, 08:38 PM
The development camp is about making impressions, etc. But you really don't beat out players for roles until everybody steps on the ice with the regular NHLers in training camp... then it becomes sink or swim for jobs.

Agreed.

mnstate0fhockey
07-09-2014, 08:42 PM
There are going to be misses, but let them miss first. There will also be surprises. Every team needs 3rd and 4th liners btw, and they don't have to be from MN. I don't give a rip where they come from (to a point) and I'm as old school as it comes regarding Gophers hockey.

How many first rounders and draft picks do the Gophers need that they don't already have? BC isn't the only NCAA team the Gophers have to compete with, the Gophers look like they are going to be stacked next season and their current commitments beyond this season can compete with any other in the country.

I honestly think there has been some serious over-analyzing and nit-picking of the recruitment lately. If a commitment can't be viewed as the next Thomas Vanek it doesn't automatically mean they're the next Rico Pagel.

Wasn't long ago (2006 I believe) that the Gophers had for recruits drafted in the first round of the NHL draft. Didn't get us very far. I've learned to not put too much stock in where players get drafted. The skillset you need to succeed in college hockey doesn't have to translate to the NHL.

mnstate0fhockey
07-09-2014, 08:47 PM
Feel like I saw my screen name in here earlier. :) Any negative comments I make about recruits are because I'm a worrier, like when I saw Ambroz and Ramsey fall off the charts in their draft years. I was worried about Fasching, and look how that turned out. I mentioned it somewhere but I'm not scared to admit I was wrong about a recruit after they get the chance to prove themselves. This is how I approach the non-MN kids. I'm willing to be won over.

I'm one of the few people left that likes the all-MN idea. All-MN in this sense can mean vast majority Minnesotan. I'm 100% cool with elite kids from wherever committing. Only an idiot would complain because Jonathan Toews isn't from MN. I don't think we've ever won a title with more than three non-Minnesotans. Once we do, I'll be totally cool with 6-7 non-MN kids. Any season without a national title is a failure.

I know I'll get ****, but I think people are allowed to disagree on things. We just need to win a title so we can rub it in the faces of two sets of annoying fans and not have to talk about this stuff.

We've won two titles with only Minnesotans. :D

That was 35-40 years ago though, and much has changed since then.