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giwan
04-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Found that in the New England area, a group is creating a Juniors League specifically for Women. Now this has been a fairly proven way for men to get on to a college as few really make it directly from high school. Anyone know more about this? Thoughts about it?

brookyone
04-10-2014, 02:13 PM
Found that in the New England area, a group is creating a Juniors League specifically for Women. Now this has been a fairly proven way for men to get on to a college as few really make it directly from high school. Anyone know more about this? Thoughts about it?
Prefer that players advance to college directly from high school or prep personally.

LG4
04-10-2014, 03:03 PM
Can't see it being successful because for the guys it works as the difference in a 20 vs a 18 year old freshman is pretty clear because they mature later then females and its to the college's advantage to hold them back. The males are also able to find good quality competition to improve before starting college.This female junior league will play who ? u19 exists aleady. The d1 caliber players are in college. Don't see the numbers there. Are there that many parents willing to dish out the money for what end?

Hux
04-10-2014, 04:44 PM
Found that in the New England area, a group is creating a Juniors League specifically for Women. Now this has been a fairly proven way for men to get on to a college as few really make it directly from high school. Anyone know more about this? Thoughts about it?

The term "juniors" is a misnomer on the women' side, carried over from the tendency of Canadians to refer to the PWHL Intermediate (U20) teams as Junior teams. There is already a women's "junior" league, the JWHL, which is U19 and has been in existence since 2007. Both are full season leagues, but unlike the boys side, the teams are not made up of principally post-grads.

The JWHL consists of several club teams and several sports academies that play full season schedules. (roughly 65-80 games depending on team)

In New England there are presently two new ventures trying to get of the ground as "junior" leagues, mimicking the showcase type schedule that the JWHL currently uses. However, unlike the JWHL, which includes teams from Boston to Vancouver, these leagues and programs are New England based and will draw primarily from New England.

The problem with that model is there are not enough high end players to draw from as the majority are playing Prep, or are at NAHA or the Boston Shamrocks. Whereas NAHA and the Shamrocks are equipped to house and school their players, apparently none of the new teams have that option.

One of the leagues was to slated to hold their tryouts this weekend, but has cancelled them.

HockeyEast33
04-10-2014, 06:15 PM
The term "juniors" is a misnomer on the women' side, carried over from the tendency of Canadians to refer to the PWHL Intermediate (U20) teams as Junior teams. There is already a women's "junior" league, the JWHL, which is U19 and has been in existence since 2007. Both are full season leagues, but unlike the boys side, the teams are not made up of principally post-grads.

The JWHL consists of several club teams and several sports academies that play full season schedules. (roughly 65-80 games depending on team)

In New England there are presently two new ventures trying to get of the ground as "junior" leagues, mimicking the showcase type schedule that the JWHL currently uses. However, unlike the JWHL, which includes teams from Boston to Vancouver, these leagues and programs are New England based and will draw primarily from New England.

The problem with that model is there are not enough high end players to draw from as the majority are playing Prep, or are at NAHA or the Boston Shamrocks. Whereas NAHA and the Shamrocks are equipped to house and school their players, apparently none of the new teams have that option.

One of the leagues was to slated to hold their tryouts this weekend, but has cancelled them.

Aside from being a bit of an ad for the JWHL (:)), this is an excellent summary of the status on the girls side. These new programs aren't really Juniors programs, they are youth programs for high school aged girls. On the boys side in the Boston/NE area, there are literally dozens of programs calling themselves Tier 1, AAA, Juniors, etc. Many (or even most) of them are either formed by a disenchanted parent group from some program or as a money grabs by folks who have a name coach and can use that to attract players (of which there is a seemingly endless supply on the boys side). It has been pointed to as one of the reasons that Boston/NE produces so few NHL quality players given the large number of youth players - the competition is so diluted that the really good players never are able to fully develop. Compare that to Chicago for instance, where there are really only 2 or 3 top level youth programs from which boys procced to Juniors, and you can see why it doesn't work that well.

On the girls side, we are now starting to see a similar evolution. Assabet Valley pretty much has ruled New England for the last 20 or more years (the Polar Bears, Wizards, or Stars occasionally field a better team at a specific age group). Assabet, Polar Bears, etc. serve the prep school players that aspire to college level play and the system has worked and continues to work pretty well (just look at this and last year's Assabet, Wizards, Spitfires, and Breakers college commitment lists for evidence). The JWHL came along and really services a different demographic - typically kids who aspire to college hockey, don't go to prep school (for whatever reason) or are post-grads (public or private) or are from out of New England/US and need a place to play to get college level exposure. Between these two models, pretty much all of the interested kids have a potential path to college. The new junior league startup attempts really fall into the catrgories of the boys youth programs - some are formed by disgruntled folks (parents/coaches) who don't like the current system (or it hasn't served their purpose well) and are trying to break the Assabet/club team hold or money grabs based on the name recognition of certain coaches. Unlike the boys side, while there are a growing number of women's players, there is nowhere near the supply necessary to sustain all these leagues. So, I agree with Hux that they will almost certainly fail as did many attempts before them.... soemday perhaps, but not yet.

I don't necessarily agree with LG4 though. D1 schools are increasingly starting to direct players to post-grad years and/or red-shirting, so there is growing interest in having players arrive as first year players when they are older/bigger/stronger. But either the prep school/club team or the JWHL provides that path as well so there is no need for anotehr junior league to realize that.

Eeyore
04-11-2014, 03:00 AM
I don't necessarily agree with LG4 though. D1 schools are increasingly starting to direct players to post-grad years and/or red-shirting, so there is growing interest in having players arrive as first year players when they are older/bigger/stronger. But either the prep school/club team or the JWHL provides that path as well so there is no need for anotehr junior league to realize that.

One of the interesting things at the Frozen Four this year was looking at the rosters and seeing how much younger, not in terms of class year but chronologically, Minnesota was than any of the other teams there.

HockeyEast33
04-11-2014, 09:41 AM
One of the interesting things at the Frozen Four this year was looking at the rosters and seeing how much younger, not in terms of class year but chronologically, Minnesota was than any of the other teams there.

Yes - MN is an exception to my comment. But they get the best of the best players - kids that regardless of their age are ready for primetime and aren't willing to spend a year developing further (and don't need to).

Call It
04-11-2014, 12:03 PM
I agree with the number of girls to support this many leagues. One thing that might happen is that the new league is 33% of the cost of the JWHL, free markets might have a say in this debate. The MN T-Breds were very good prior to the economic recession and since have been sub-par.

LG4, "Are there that many parents willing to dish out the money for what end?" I think there was, however now in MN the parents see that little Jane can make it to college hockey with out spending thousands. We have a great system in that Fall that supports/ compliments our HS league. Probably similar to Assabet/ Polar Bears.

OnMAA
04-11-2014, 01:45 PM
One of the interesting things at the Frozen Four this year was looking at the rosters and seeing how much younger, not in terms of class year but chronologically, Minnesota was than any of the other teams there.

My guess is that that tends to be cyclical, and not a trend of just one specific team. A few years ago, Cornell was the team with the young group at the FF. They made it to the final that year. In the subsequent years, they never got as far, even though on paper they had a more senior squad, including all the key player from that Final.

Eeyore
04-11-2014, 02:57 PM
My guess is that that tends to be cyclical, and not a trend of just one specific team. A few years ago, Cornell was the team with the young group at the FF. They made it to the final that year. In the subsequent years, they never got as far, even though on paper they had a more senior squad, including all the key player from that Final.

Again, this isn't about class year; Minnesota is just younger than the other teams and I don't think it's a one year thing. It wasn't just that the Gophers had only four seniors; it's that the seniors on the team were younger than the seniors on the other teams, often by as much as two years.

futurestar
04-11-2014, 03:51 PM
In Massachusetts there might be a demand for this kind of program because of the few high school hockey programs. Your alternatives are Prep ($$$$), Assabet (tough to break into) and the existing hockey programs like NAHA, NSA and Shamrocks ($$ to $$$). I recently spoke to one of the organizers of one of these new teams and he was very enthusiastic about his program. He's actually looking for out of state talent and is also looking for billet families, just like the boy's junior program. It might take a while but the demand could be there.

OnMAA
04-11-2014, 04:09 PM
Again, this isn't about class year; Minnesota is just younger than the other teams and I don't think it's a one year thing. It wasn't just that the Gophers had only four seniors; it's that the seniors on the team were younger than the seniors on the other teams, often by as much as two years.

Again, convinced that is not just a Minnesota thing. For example two of the key players in the final, Terry from Minnesota and Rattray, are from the same YOB and same graduating class in Ontario. They came into the NCAA at age 18, like most do. The ones that are typically a year older are the players from Quebec. That is driven by their grade 11/Highschool ending, followed by 2 years of CEGEP. The other players that are older are those that go the prep route and do a PG year. (Not all that go to Prep do this, but some do). This year Clarkson was older on average than Minnesota for two reasons....1 - They had a large senior class, 2 - They carry several Quebec players, who on average go to the NCAA a year later than their counterparts from the rest of Canada. Minnesota has on occasion in the past recruited players that do a PG year, or are a year older. Prime example was the twins.

brookyone
04-11-2014, 04:28 PM
Again, convinced that is not just a Minnesota thing. For example two of the key players in the final, Terry from Minnesota and Rattray, are from the same YOB and same graduating class in Ontario. They came into the NCAA at age 18, like most do. The ones that are typically a year older are the players from Quebec. That is driven by their grade 11/Highschool ending, followed by 2 years of CEGEP. The other players that are older are those that go the prep route and do a PG year. (Not all that go to Prep do this, but some do). This year Clarkson was older on average than Minnesota for two reasons....1 - They had a large senior class, 2 - They carry several Quebec players, who on average go to the NCAA a year later than their counterparts from the rest of Canada. Minnesota has on occasion in the past recruited players that do a PG year, or are a year older. Prime example was the twins.
The twins played a PG season? At Shattuck? I was unaware of that. Thought they started their freshman season at 19 years of age in 2008.

OnMAA
04-11-2014, 05:43 PM
The twins played a PG season? At Shattuck? I was unaware of that. Thought they started their freshman season at 19 years of age in 2008.


Minnesota has on occasion in the past recruited players that do a PG year, or are a year older. Prime example was the twins.

Don't know if the Twins played a PG year or not, but they were a year older than most of their counterparts from Ontario entering college that year.

OnMAA
04-11-2014, 05:48 PM
Interestingly, back prior to 2003, Ontario used to have grade 13 and players from Ontario and Quebec heading to college were 19. When the grade 13 concept was eliminated, the Ontario recruits heading to college were a year younger, lining up with the rest of Canada, other than Quebec. That age change also led to a drastic change the of club team landscape at the Midget AA and Intermediate AA levels in Ontario. At around the same time the age groupings in Canada were changed as well. It took about 5 to 6 years for that change to work its way through the system.

brookyone
04-11-2014, 06:38 PM
Don't know if the Twins played a PG year or not, but they were a year older than most of their counterparts entering college that year.
19 is a year older than most when they begin their college careers? Something else I didn't know.

Months older...maybe.

Hux
04-11-2014, 08:35 PM
19 is a year older than most when they begin their college careers? Something else I didn't know.

Months older...maybe.

A fair amount of kids come out of Prep, and most enter as rising sophs or juniors from high school but repeat a year to catch up with the curriculum.

The programs in the new league may be thinking of finding billet families but I doubt that will fly with most mothers and fathers of teen girls.

D2D
04-11-2014, 11:55 PM
19 is a year older than most when they begin their college careers? Something else I didn't know.

Months older...maybe.

The Lamoureux's have July birthdays, so they were age 19 by just two months when they enrolled at Minnesota for the 2008-09 season - not unusual at all.

brookyone
04-12-2014, 12:55 AM
The Lamoureux's have July birthdays, so they were age 19 by just two months when they enrolled at Minnesota for the 2008-09 season - not unusual at all.
Ah...so then the twins don't actually suffice as a prime example of Minnesota having recruited players who as freshmen, are a year older than their counterparts entering college that same year.

I think Krissy Wendell was a bit older than the average freshman. Only one I recall for Minnesota.

OnMAA
04-12-2014, 10:17 AM
19 is a year older than most when they begin their college careers? Something else I didn't know.

Months older...maybe.

Our oldest is born in November the same year as the twins, and played against them. She went to play College Hockey (in Ontario) a full year ahead of the twins, just like most of her team mates born in the same year. That is the standard for Ontario, as the school system goes by YOB. Our daughter was still 17 when she entered college due to her late in year DOB. Some better known Ontario players in the same class and B-year ('89) were Deluce, Johnson and Wakefield, and they all started college in 07-08, a year before the twins. (BTW this is not a knock on the twins, was using them as a comparison point).

Here is the full list of the 07-08 NCAA D1 Recruits from Ontario. Many of them had great college careers.
A couple in this list were a year older (Irwin for example), but most are '89 born and therefore 18 years of age when they entered college.



Player................Position.......(Current Team)...............................Hometown
Jennifer Bauer.............G.............(Hamilton Jr)......................St. Catharines, ON
Samantha Stortini......D.............(Sudbury Wolves)........................Lockerby, ON
Jaclyn Small.............D.............(Toronto Jr. Aeros)........................Thornhill, ON
Rebecca Gordon........F..........(Stoney Creek Sabres)......................St. Cat's, ON
Melissa Waldie..........F..............(Aurora Panthers)......................Newmarket, ON
Lisa Plenderleith........G............(Durham Jr Lightning)...................North York, ON
Jennifer Chaisson .....F................(Ottawa NCCP).......................Cumberland, ON
Hayley Hughes.........F...............(Toronto JR. Aeros)....................Stouffville, ON
Rebecca Johnston....F................(Sudbury Wolves).........................Sudbury, ON
Katie Wilson...........G...............(Markham-Stouffville).....................Uxbridge, ON
Deborah Conway.....F..................(Toronto Jr Aeros).......................Toronto, ON
Vicki Bendus..........F...................(Aurora Jr Panthers)...........Wasaga Beach, ON
Melissa Lacroix......D....................(Toronto JR. Aeros).........Penetanguishine, ON
Tara Gray................D..................(Mississaug a Aeros)...................Toronto, ON
Haley Irwin...............F..................(Mississaug a Aeros).............Thunder Bay, ON
Courtney Birchard....F....................(Toronto JR Aeros)...............Mississauga, ON
Jenn Wakefield......F.....................(Etobicoke Dolphins)..................Pickering, ON
Christina Mancuso...F..................(Toronto JR Aeros).......................Toronto, ON
Laura Martindale.....D....................(Ottawa NCCP).........................Kingston, ON
Caroline Park..........F..................(Mississauga Chiefs)...................Brampton, ON
Jamie Miller............G..................(Toronto Jr Aeros)................Richmond Hill, ON
Brandice Moniz.......F..................(Toronto Jr Aeros)........................Oakville, ON
Sara O'Malley.........F...................(Hamilton Hawks).........................Guelph, ON
Sonja Van Der Bliek.G..................(Toronto Jr Aeros).......................Toronto, ON
Victoria Germuska...D.................(London Devillettes)...................Tilsonburg, ON
Aleah Dougherty...... F.......................(NCCP).................... .........Kemptville, ON
Kirsten Roach..........D.................(Durham Lightning)...........................Ajax, ON
Mallory Deluce.......F..................(Mississauga Aeros).......................London, ON


My point of reference is Ontario.