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View Full Version : The New WCHA, 2014 Offseason: See-ya, Bruce



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Pink Pony
04-03-2014, 05:39 PM
Outstanding stuff. I know that several schools in both the NCHC and WCHA are unhappy about their massive increase in travel expense and travel time. Yours is a good common sense solution. The only problem is that common sense is not very common among administrators in the game we love.

They are looking at the other cents instead of the other sense.

Pink Pony
04-03-2014, 06:09 PM
Approach Robert Morris and Niagara about joining the league.

Pittsburgh and Buffalo would be great markets for the WCHA.

uaafanblog
04-03-2014, 06:12 PM
Please show a legal precedent that would force any conference in any sport to accept any team.No precedent is needed. Where did I say that the conference would be forced to accept a team?

That has nothing to do with it so there's nothing in this that would have anything to do with Ferris getting back with Western. Each of those schools made a decision to join the league's they are in. If they want out ... that'll be covered in the league agreement. Nobody is forced to stay in the league. Again, it's entirely not germane to the discussion of the UAA and UA_ rivalry being set aside by the EXISTING conference.

See what we have here is an existing agreement amongst the conference members. I'd doubt it specifically says anything about not splitting up/keeping the Alaska's together for scheduling purposes. However, it need not say anything about it anyway.

One of the (if not "THE") guiding principle(s) of the NCAA is "equity". I'll stipulate that there's all sorts of ways in which the NCAA doesn't live up to this ethos. That said, a court action (simple injunction) to halt an existing conference from effing over two of it's members simply because of geography wouldn't be hard to achieve especially in the 9th circuit. This is especially true when there are already financial considerations in place to mitigate travel and expense in this particular situation. A good lawyer should be able to slam dunk it.

Restated for SCSU fans and Davy:
Splitting up the UAA/UA_ rivalry to suit your provincial preferences is stupid and probably actionable in court.

davyd83
04-03-2014, 06:14 PM
Pittsburgh and Buffalo would be great markets for the WCHA.

They would add to frequent flier miles for Mankato, Bemidji, Tech and NMU.

manurespreader
04-03-2014, 06:42 PM
Just a couple of points. I would think it would cost money to join in to the all powerful nchc. Even if they want you, they are going to want money. Second it might cost something to leave wherever you are.. Third, if you are Robert Morris or someone in that vicinity, your travel costs would go up by joining the teams in ohio/ Michigan. And if you are in Michigan, like maybe Ferris, or lssu, having robert morris etc, is probably more costly than having mankato from a travel perspective. So if Mankato does leave and some other teams do join, travel costs overall might not decline.Though for some they would certainly.

You can't assume out of hand that those teams in atlantic hockey would jump at the chance. I believe they already had a chance to move and declined it.
This is a tougher problem than you think.

As long as we are putting out pie in the sky, How about this one for you. WCHA adds St Cloud and Duluth at no cost and offers some incentives that add up to money for them to come over? Could they be enticed?

RapidsCity
04-03-2014, 07:18 PM
Just a couple of points. I would think it would cost money to join in to the all powerful nchc. Even if they want you, they are going to want money. Second it might cost something to leave wherever you are.. Third, if you are Robert Morris or someone in that vicinity, your travel costs would go up by joining the teams in ohio/ Michigan. And if you are in Michigan, like maybe Ferris, or lssu, having robert morris etc, is probably more costly than having mankato from a travel perspective. So if Mankato does leave and some other teams do join, travel costs overall might not decline.Though for some they would certainly.

You can't assume out of hand that those teams in atlantic hockey would jump at the chance. I believe they already had a chance to move and declined it.
This is a tougher problem than you think.

As long as we are putting out pie in the sky, How about this one for you. WCHA adds St Cloud and Duluth at no cost and offers some incentives that add up to money for them to come over? Could they be enticed?

From LSSU it's about the same distance to Mankato as it is to Pittsburgh. For Ferris, it's a bit shorter to Pittsburgh.

RapidsCity
04-03-2014, 07:23 PM
This automatic idea that everyone (other than Alaskans) has about "splitting" them is untenable. Every other team in the league has it's geographic rivals. Forcing Alaska schools is wrong in the strongest terms. Should such an attempt arise, I can only hope that UAA and UA_ join in some court action to block it and I think they could get the NCAA to join such an action.

Here's what I see as patently ridiculous about the suggestion:
UAA and UA_ would be fine with paying probably paying 100% of travel for league opponents as long as there is no threat to their rivalry. And on top of that concession. The exempted games that all league opponents get is PURELY AND SIMPLY $$$$ in their pockets. What each school does with those extra games is up to them but if you count the seats in each teams arena and multiply by $15.00 then you have the revenue that each team stands to make if they are able to maximize the potential.

So, you'd have a situation where travel to Alaska is paid ... And $XX,000 potential in additional revenue is generated. Which leaves anyone with a brain scratching their head as to what could possibly be the objection to maintaining the current "Alaska Status Quo" structure. There is NO financial downside for ANY league member regardless of the number of trips to Alaska.

If the objection is nothing more than the amount of time that it takes to get there and back then I have no reasoned response. I'm left but to say, "Suck it up babies". Both Alaska schools make a minimum of 6 or 7 trips a year. I don't make that point in any sort of machismo; instead it is an example. They do it with no harm to their players/programs so it's logically obvious that other's can do it 3 times in 2 years. Scheduling accommodation makes it likely that many of the teams each year could make a single 2 week trip to Alaska and play both teams.

It would be interesting to see how long a judge was rolling on the floor laughing his butt off before dismissing such a suit.

UAA Fan in Florida
04-03-2014, 08:40 PM
Yes, and he would have fellated Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky if he had the chance...BUT Penn State wasn't on the radar then. We're talking about stuff that happened in the spring and summer of 2009, more than a full year before PSU announced their plans.

Naaa, they wouldn't have let him, he's not their ideal age... (Bad, I know, but I could not resist.)

Freddie
04-03-2014, 09:08 PM
Freddie's Pipe Dream

3 separate 6-team conferences, each with their own auto-bid.
Call them whatever you like.

Conf A: BG, WMU, Miami, Ferris, LSSU, Huntsville
Conf B: Mankato, NMU, MTU, Duluth, St Cloud, Fairbanks
Conf C: CC, Denver, Omaha, NoDak, Bemidji, Anchorage

Play each opponent in your own conference 4x (20 games) then either 1 opponent from each of the other conferences 2x (one home series, one away) for a 24 game schedule, OR 2 opponents from each of the other conferences 2x, for a 28 game schedule. All games among members of the three conferences count as conference games.

Conference by-laws include:
$50,000 fine to any school that accepts B1G contracts without 1-1 or 2-2 reciprocation.
1 million dollar exit fee
No shootouts

Each conference has their own tournament, the semis and finals are held together at the same location.
First round; 1&2 get byes, 6@3, 5@4, best of 3
Now all 3 come to wherever (Chicago, Milwaukee, St Louis, you name it)
Conf A; semis Friday 130 and 5pm
Conf B; semis Fri 830pm and Sat 130pm
Conf C; semis Sat 5 and 830pm

Championship games Sunday A 130, B 500, C 830

Rotate start times on a three year cycle.

Call it College Hockey Nirvana.

bigblue_dl
04-03-2014, 09:23 PM
Fine, don't split the Alaskas. They can have fun in their 2 team WCHA. There's the solution to that problem.

With that said, I have no problem with both being in the league with my favorite team. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of thinking that anyone is forced to agree to anything with them.

gfmorris
04-03-2014, 09:55 PM
Anchorage, Fairbanks, and Huntsville all finished in the bottom five in APR score among hockey teams last year, so the travel is probably having some effect.

I can't speak for other schools, but UAH is also very hard. I have so much respect for Chad Brears being the WCHA scholar-athlete this year. He rocked a 4.0 in mechanical engineering. I never had a 4.0 semester, and I finished with a 2.931 GPA. UAH ain't easy, and for him to pull this off while playing 38 games ... well, I made a point to shake his hand tonight.

GFM

pdt1081
04-03-2014, 11:54 PM
They would add to frequent flier miles for Mankato, Bemidji, Tech and NMU.

If I remember correctly, the biggest hangup during the talks with the 4 from AHA was their concern with travel. Specifically to the U.P. and Alaska. Don't know that to be true, just what I'm remembering for some reason.

I also fully believe that had those talks progressed, UAH would have been included. I'm sure there was some concern about the state of the program at the time, and the other teams wanted to ensure they would be able to maintain 6 (yes, I realize that BG was involved, but all this was after their fund raising drive was in full swing).

uaafanblog
04-04-2014, 01:11 AM
It would be interesting to see how long a judge was rolling on the floor laughing his butt off before dismissing such a suit.

Yeah um , Google and ten minutes is your friend.

There are more than a few cases where schools have gained injunctive relief against athletic conferences. Let's hope the circumstances arise where it's necessary for UAA and UA_ to give it a go.

davyd83
04-04-2014, 08:16 AM
Yeah um , Google and ten minutes is your friend.

There are more than a few cases where schools have gained injunctive relief against athletic conferences. Let's hope the circumstances arise where it's necessary for UAA and UA_ to give it a go.

Please do share. I have yet to see a "geographic discriminatio" suit. If you file a suit that says UAF & UAA must be in the same conference because they are the nearest geographic rivals, then could UAB sue the SEC so they could be in with their nearest rival in Tuscaloosa?

A key factor would be the contract between the league and those schools. Has the WCHA contractually agreed to provide a home to those teams for a certain number of years and are the other 8 teams obligated to the conference for a certain number of years.

And if such a suit were viable, why hasn't it been filed in the time since those schools were originally split into the WCHA and CCHA after the dissolution of the Great West?

bigblue_dl
04-04-2014, 08:17 AM
Please do share. I have yet to see a "geographic discriminatio" suit. If you file a suit that says UAF & UAA must be in the same conference because they are the nearest geographic rivals, then could UAB sue the SEC so they could be in with their nearest rival in Tuscaloosa?

And Eastern Michigan should be in the Big 10, San Diego State in the Pac 10, and so on. Its simply absurd.

beaverhockeyfan
04-04-2014, 08:22 AM
Freddie's Pipe Dream

3 separate 6-team conferences, each with their own auto-bid.
Call them whatever you like.

Conf A: BG, WMU, Miami, Ferris, LSSU, Huntsville
Conf B: Mankato, NMU, MTU, Duluth, St Cloud, Fairbanks
Conf C: CC, Denver, Omaha, NoDak, Bemidji, Anchorage

Play each opponent in your own conference 4x (20 games) then either 1 opponent from each of the other conferences 2x (one home series, one away) for a 24 game schedule, OR 2 opponents from each of the other conferences 2x, for a 28 game schedule. All games among members of the three conferences count as conference games.

Conference by-laws include:
$50,000 fine to any school that accepts B1G contracts without 1-1 or 2-2 reciprocation.
1 million dollar exit fee
No shootouts

Each conference has their own tournament, the semis and finals are held together at the same location.
First round; 1&2 get byes, 6@3, 5@4, best of 3
Now all 3 come to wherever (Chicago, Milwaukee, St Louis, you name it)
Conf A; semis Friday 130 and 5pm
Conf B; semis Fri 830pm and Sat 130pm
Conf C; semis Sat 5 and 830pm

Championship games Sunday A 130, B 500, C 830

Rotate start times on a three year cycle.

Call it College Hockey Nirvana.

Minor change would be needed. With the championship weekend, you would have to go Thursday, Friday, Saturday as the NCAA does their selection/seeding on Sunday. I don't think they would want to wait until 11:30 Sunday night to take care of that.

Or have Championship Weekend a week earlier than usual.

uaafanblog
04-04-2014, 10:44 AM
Please do share. I have yet to see a "geographic discriminatio" suit. If you file a suit that says UAF & UAA must be in the same conference because they are the nearest geographic rivals, then could UAB sue the SEC so they could be in with their nearest rival in Tuscaloosa?

A key factor would be the contract between the league and those schools. Has the WCHA contractually agreed to provide a home to those teams for a certain number of years and are the other 8 teams obligated to the conference for a certain number of years.

And if such a suit were viable, why hasn't it been filed in the time since those schools were originally split into the WCHA and CCHA after the dissolution of the Great West?

You have read words but not processed their meanings. Do you have a wife? Does she often tell you that you aren't listening to her even though you heard every word she said? Wouldn't surprise me.

Nothing you've asked here pertains to ANYTHING I posted. NOTHING. I didn't say there were cases about "geographic discrimination" ... never used those words .. yet you put them in quotation marks as if I had. What a load of disingenuous crap. Did you do that on purpose? Or are you really just that thick?

I said nothing like
UAF & UAA must be in the same conference .... I'm effing talking about member schools abrogating an existing agreement. I will not explain it again. Go back and read it if you want. Or not.

davyd83
04-04-2014, 05:02 PM
You have read words but not processed their meanings. Do you have a wife? Does she often tell you that you aren't listening to her even though you heard every word she said? Wouldn't surprise me.

Nothing you've asked here pertains to ANYTHING I posted. NOTHING. I didn't say there were cases about "geographic discrimination" ... never used those words .. yet you put them in quotation marks as if I had. What a load of disingenuous crap. Did you do that on purpose? Or are you really just that thick?

I said nothing like . I'm effing talking about member schools abrogating an existing agreement. I will not explain it again. Go back and read it if you want. Or not.

Apparently you missed a paragraph: "A key factor would be the contract between the league and those schools. Has the WCHA contractually agreed to provide a home to those teams for a certain number of years and are the other 8 teams obligated to the conference for a certain number of years."

Those quotes are on my post.

lawdoggies
04-04-2014, 05:28 PM
Do you have a wife? Does she often tell you that you aren't listening to her even though you heard every word she said? Wouldn't surprise me.


Seriously . . . this is the level of discussion??? :( I'm outta here . . . maybe things will be better in the fall. Have good summers everyone!

RapidsCity
04-04-2014, 05:56 PM
You have read words but not processed their meanings. Do you have a wife? Does she often tell you that you aren't listening to her even though you heard every word she said? Wouldn't surprise me.

Nothing you've asked here pertains to ANYTHING I posted. NOTHING. I didn't say there were cases about "geographic discrimination" ... never used those words .. yet you put them in quotation marks as if I had. What a load of disingenuous crap. Did you do that on purpose? Or are you really just that thick?

I said nothing like . I'm effing talking about member schools abrogating an existing agreement. I will not explain it again. Go back and read it if you want. Or not.
Well then just offer those universities the $$$ to back that lawsuit. I'm betting you lose. And I'd put a very large wager on "you lose." Oh, check back, you've either used the phrase "geographic discrimination" or made reference to the concept. You make our Truth Squad look brilliant.