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chickod
04-02-2013, 09:41 AM
Yes

+1

sandiegoblkbr
04-02-2013, 09:53 AM
How can population have "nothing to do with it?" The reason why you get good attendance in Manchester, Providence and Worcester is because there is a LARGE POPULATION within an hour of these locations. There is not a LARGE POPULATION within an hour of Bangor. Unless the percentage of "Maine" hockey fans is three times higher than anywhere else in the country. So what you're saying is, say, 40% of the population in Penobscot County (population: 153,786) will go to the games, whereas only 1% of the population in Eastern Massachusetts (population: about 4,000,000), Southern New Hampshire (population: around 800,000) and Rhode Island (population: 1,050,292) will go to the games down there (the percentages are hypothetical - you get the point).

Those populations have to be college hockey fans and willing to fork over the money to buy tickets. Less competition for the entertainment dollar in Maine......especially in March.

And by the way........you DO realize that people in Maine don't mind driving 2, 3, 4 hours to see college hockey games......right? Many used to drive to Orono before the program was driven into the ground. Mainers aren't like NH and MA residents that think a "long drive" is 20 minutes.

sandiegoblkbr
04-02-2013, 09:57 AM
The city or the arena? :D

If Portland is a crap hole than most other cities in New England must be total sh*t.

sandiegoblkbr
04-02-2013, 09:58 AM
Uhhh... YES IT DOES! It's too small, it's 4 hours away from the nearest other D1 hockey team and it has NO ICE!! Maine only sells 4100 tickets to it's own games, you think those people are going to spend 3 or 4 times the money to watch teams from out of state play? I have no axe to grind against you or Maine but watching you make a fool of yourself is getting painful! Please. Stop.

Yeah.....OK.......whatever.:rolleyes:

HockeyMan2000
04-02-2013, 10:33 AM
Not to mention that most of the games are joined in progress because apparently ESPN doesn't understand that there is not a finite time limit in hockey...especially in the post-season where it seems as though every little thing is "reviewed" and the game drags out longer and longer.

What would've happened if that St.Lawrence-BU game in Albany years back had been played not at Noon time but in the 5:30 slot this year in Providence? Literally the 2nd game would've started after Midnight! (As it was, I remember people from Michigan had to leave for flights back and couldn't stay to see them play Maine seeing as the start time went from 3:30 to 7 ish).

It's just a matter of time before we get one of those multiple OT games in a venue where the times are staggered late just to accommodate TV. When it happens, not only will they miss broadcasting huge portions of the following game, but it will really screw the fan who paid $80 to see it.

One more reason this whole round needs to be "rethought" by the NCAA.

HockeyMan2000
04-02-2013, 10:39 AM
Worcester and Manchester both have averaged over 8000, Providence is lower but still respectable.

Providence, I feel, did well with the field they were allotted, especially when you consider Manchester had two local/nearby HE schools and two big programs out of the WCHA. By comparison, Quinnipiac, Canisius, Union are not necessarily big names that would get the casual fan to show up. BC doesn't always bring huge numbers and they were playing the late game the night before Easter on top of it. To do 11,000 over the two days, with a Q-U final as well, was pretty decent. If they had more "draws" there, I think they would've filled the place up with no problem.

I remember the previous regional in Providence didn't draw that great -- one reason being that the ticket $$ was higher than it was in Worcester (if I'm remembering it correctly) that same year. At least it wasn't any higher this time around, and certainly the promotion was also better this time as well.

chickod
04-02-2013, 10:40 AM
Mainers aren't like NH and MA residents that think a "long drive" is 20 minutes.

Easy there, big guy. You're still missing the point. I don't care how long they're willing to drive. As you saw, if you add the total populations of Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Rhode Island (not even including Connecticut), Maine comprises about 12% of that. So what you're telling me is that they will draw as many people as the other venues that have 8 times the population? Good luck.

And just as a side note, we drive to New Jersey (4 1/2 hours) all the time to visit relatives. We don't drive as much because we don't HAVE to...which is the whole point of this discussion. Everything is within closer proximity.

chickod
04-02-2013, 10:43 AM
If Portland is a crap hole than most other cities in New England must be total sh*t.

We were talking about Worcester (well, I was anyway). Jeesh, are you sensitive...I like Portland...we go up to Saco all the time...there are a lot of good restaurants in Portland.

chickod
04-02-2013, 10:51 AM
What would've happened if that St.Lawrence-BU game in Albany years back had been played not at Noon time but in the 5:30 slot this year in Providence?

I was at that game (not a good memory :)) DiPietro made 77 saves. We had good intentions of staying for the next game, but left after about 10 minutes. Even then, I think I got home at 3:00 a.m.
But, the more we complain the more we're going to hear from the people who say, "Be happy it's on at all." Which is true, because years ago the only way you could see these games was to go. It would be nice if they tried to be accomodating, but the reality is the NCAA just doesn't care enough.

HockeyMan2000
04-02-2013, 11:05 AM
I was at that game (not a good memory :)) DiPietro made 77 saves. We had good intentions of staying for the next game, but left after about 10 minutes. Even then, I think I got home at 3:00 a.m.

I was there also. I yelled out "Somebody Please Score!" at around the 3-hour mark, which got a lot of laughs from the non-partisans because that point, it was becoming painful to watch these kids try and keep moving.


But, the more we complain the more we're going to hear from the people who say, "Be happy it's on at all." Which is true, because years ago the only way you could see these games was to go. It would be nice if they tried to be accomodating, but the reality is the NCAA just doesn't care enough.

But the NCAA does care when they see meager attendance numbers that could be improved. If they're not making as much $$ as they ought to be, then it's something they care about -- putting an inferior product out there that's a money loser IS the kind of thing they'll pay attention to. ;)

I mean, surely these games aren't bringing in big ratings for ESPN. It's good that they're being televised, but really most of the games have been available to people for a long time now (one way or another). If they wanted to, they could put more games into syndication -- like they did back at the time we were up in Albany -- and not do ridiculous things like play late games in Providence with face-offs after 9pm. That's the kind of thing that can be changed. Those Providence games should've been played at Noon and 3:30. I guarantee you they would've had more walk-up business playing at that hour too.

Playing games in empty or half-full arenas isn't good for the sport or the gate that's being generated. I agree totally that 2 regional sites is the way to go. Whether that requires 3 days of games, or a "preliminary" on campus round, we can debate about it. But to me, ever since they split the regionals up into 4 sites, it's been a losing proposition in terms of the quality of the product, and it needs to be addressed. I can't imagine it won't be eventually when you have 1000-2000 fans out west. That's just pathetic (and understandable!).

sandiegoblkbr
04-02-2013, 11:35 AM
Providence, I feel, did well with the field they were allotted, especially when you consider Manchester had two local/nearby HE schools and two big programs out of the WCHA. By comparison, Quinnipiac, Canisius, Union are not necessarily big names that would get the casual fan to show up. BC doesn't always bring huge numbers and they were playing the late game the night before Easter on top of it. To do 11,000 over the two days, with a Q-U final as well, was pretty decent. If they had more "draws" there, I think they would've filled the place up with no problem.

I remember the previous regional in Providence didn't draw that great -- one reason being that the ticket $$ was higher than it was in Worcester (if I'm remembering it correctly) that same year. At least it wasn't any higher this time around, and certainly the promotion was also better this time as well.

So what you are saying is that Providence would draw well with the right teams.......and if ticket prices were lower.......and if it wasn't the day before Easter.......and......and....:rolleyes:

sandiegoblkbr
04-02-2013, 11:41 AM
Easy there, big guy. You're still missing the point. I don't care how long they're willing to drive. As you saw, if you add the total populations of Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Rhode Island (not even including Connecticut), Maine comprises about 12% of that. So what you're telling me is that they will draw as many people as the other venues that have 8 times the population? Good luck.

And just as a side note, we drive to New Jersey (4 1/2 hours) all the time to visit relatives. We don't drive as much because we don't HAVE to...which is the whole point of this discussion. Everything is within closer proximity.

I'm not missing "the point".......I know what "point" you are trying to make.:rolleyes:

So tell me why Bangor, Maine draws 10.....12....15K to concerts 10-15 times per summer???? Ticket prices range from $50-$100+...........there just can't be enough people in the Central/Eastern Maine area to generate those types of crowds at those prices multiple times every summer......??? Oh, what's that you say...........people are driving hours to see these concerts? That can't be.........why would people drive to Bangor when there are numerous summer concert venues all over New England.....many with the same concert line-ups........???? Hmmm.........gonna have to think this one through...........

Priceless
04-02-2013, 12:06 PM
So what you are saying is that Providence would draw well with the right teams.......and if ticket prices were lower.......and if it wasn't the day before Easter.......and......and....:rolleyes:

Maybe you're missing that the regional still drew 11260 for the two days, in spite of those factors.

sandiegoblkbr
04-02-2013, 12:14 PM
Maybe you're missing that the regional still drew 11260 for the two days, in spite of those factors.

What was their excuse last time?

chickod
04-02-2013, 12:25 PM
So tell me why Bangor, Maine draws 10.....12....15K to concerts 10-15 times per summer????

Huh?? :confused: Did I miss something here? Concerts??? ("Playoffs?" - Jim Mora) Um....I would say the number of people who would go to a concert is about 1000 times that who would go to a college hockey game. I appreciate your passion - all of us have it or else we wouldn't be discussing things on here - but what does that have to do with anything???

In order to draw crowds, you have to have a POPULATION BASE to draw from. We're not picking on Maine. I'd say the same thing if it were Vermont. There AREN'T ENOUGH PEOPLE there. Nobody is saying anything about whether they're "good" fans or not. It's the same reason they don't have the American Dental Association (or fill in some major event here) Convention in Old Town. Conversely, it's the same reason whey they have conventions every WEEK in Boston. You live in a RURAL area. Not enough people are going to go there!!!!!

chatster
04-02-2013, 12:25 PM
Even though more air travel might be required, and extra work and expenses for host schools might be involved (like whitewashing boards at host arenas), has consideration been given to (a) having the round of sixteen games played at the home rinks of the top eight seeds, with four games on Saturday and four on Sunday; (b) then having the top four remaining seeds host quarterfinal games the following weekend, with two games on Saturday and two games on Sunday; and (c) then having the Frozen Four played in or near a major metropolitan area, alternating between eastern and western hosts, with preferences given to cities where hockey would be considered a good attraction?

I realize that from year to year, it would be hard to predict the total capacity of the home rinks of the top eight seeds, and that it’s conceivable (though probably not likely) that there would be a year when the top eight seeds would be schools with small home rinks. However, if the total attendance at this year’s regionals (twelve games) was 37,321, that represents about 70% of the total capacity of the home rinks of this year’s top eight seeds (52,915). If you were to add four quarterfinal games played at home rinks, then the four highest ranked seeds that advanced to this year’s quarterfinals would’ve had total capacity of 26,561.

Take total capacity of 79,476 for twelve games, and if there were an average of 50% turnout for each of those games, you might’ve had 39,738 in attendance. But let’s say that you could’ve attracted 70% capacity or more by using home rinks for the first two rounds, then you might’ve drawn at least 55,633 to those twelve games, or roughly one and a half times as many in attendance as those who actually attended this year’s regionals.

sandiegoblkbr
04-02-2013, 12:48 PM
Huh?? :confused: Did I miss something here? Concerts??? ("Playoffs?" - Jim Mora) Um....I would say the number of people who would go to a concert is about 1000 times that who would go to a college hockey game. I appreciate your passion - all of us have it or else we wouldn't be discussing things on here - but what does that have to do with anything???

In order to draw crowds, you have to have a POPULATION BASE to draw from. We're not picking on Maine. I'd say the same thing if it were Vermont. There AREN'T ENOUGH PEOPLE there. Nobody is saying anything about whether they're "good" fans or not. It's the same reason they don't have the American Dental Association (or fill in some major event here) Convention in Old Town. Conversely, it's the same reason whey they have conventions every WEEK in Boston. You live in a RURAL area. Not enough people are going to go there!!!!!

Huh??? Don't you need a population base with $$$ to pack a concert venue in Bangor, Maine with 10-15K about a dozen times per summer??? Are you saying that college hockey fans are less passionate than concert fans??? You DO realize that Maine was drawing 5.5K sellouts for 2 decades in Orono-freakin-Maine before they started sucking, right?

SCSU BlackandRed
04-02-2013, 01:17 PM
Even though more air travel might be required, and extra work and expenses for host schools might be involved (like whitewashing boards at host arenas), has consideration been given to (a) having the round of sixteen games played at the home rinks of the top eight seeds, with four games on Saturday and four on Sunday; (b) then having the top four remaining seeds host quarterfinal games the following weekend, with two games on Saturday and two games on Sunday; and (c) then having the Frozen Four played in or near a major metropolitan area, alternating between eastern and western hosts, with preferences given to cities where hockey would be considered a good attraction?

I realize that from year to year, it would be hard to predict the total capacity of the home rinks of the top eight seeds, and that it’s conceivable (though probably not likely) that there would be a year when the top eight seeds would be schools with small home rinks. However, if the total attendance at this year’s regionals (twelve games) was 37,321, that represents about 70% of the total capacity of the home rinks of this year’s top eight seeds (52,915). If you were to add four quarterfinal games played at home rinks, then the four highest ranked seeds that advanced to this year’s quarterfinals would’ve had total capacity of 26,561.

Take total capacity of 79,476 for twelve games, and if there were an average of 50% turnout for each of those games, you might’ve had 39,738 in attendance. But let’s say that you could’ve attracted 70% capacity or more by using home rinks for the first two rounds, then you might’ve drawn at least 55,633 to those twelve games, or roughly one and a half times as many in attendance as those who actually attended this year’s regionals.

Now I do like the math you have done here. Don't know if I'm totally on board with your suggestion for where you host the quarterfinals but it's an interesting thought. Big problem in my opinion is hosting the regionals in cities that are non-major metros. Flights to Toledo were either impossible or insanely priced and then combine that with challenging start times, just leads to a big struggle in getting fans in the seats. I'm guessing it was the same for UND and MN going into Grand Rapids. If those two programs can't deliver solid attendance then you know something is clearly wrong with the choice of locations. Well add a pretty steep game ticket and then require a package purchase and all this leads to extremely empty buildings with just a horrid playoff atmosphere. The kids deserve way more than that.

Would love to see them find a way to fix the overall issue but at a minimum, put the regionals in major metropolitan areas every year.

chickod
04-02-2013, 01:28 PM
Are you saying that college hockey fans are less passionate than concert fans???

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But there aren't as many people who like college hockey as there are who like music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's funny you brought this up...I was talking to a guy at work the week before the regionals (and I'm not just telling this story to substantiate my point). I told him that I was going to the playoffs (blah blah blah) and how much the tickets were. He said, "Wow!! That's expensive!" And I said, "I don't know...it's only once a year and I enjoy going. Why...you wouldn't pay that?" He replied, "I'd pay it if I were going to see a CONCERT, but not for a HOCKEY GAME!"

MOST people feel the same way. Sorry...that's just the way it is. I know it's tough for us on this board to hear, but college hockey is a NICHE sport with a SMALL (albeit passionate) fan base. You can't presume attendance will be in a similar range as the "norms" for attendance for more "mainstream" events, regardless of where it is. It's a numbers game. Since the percentage of the "general population" that will go to a college hockey game is much smaller than will go to other things, you have to START with more people. You know, like 1% of 200,000 is less than 1% of 2,000,000. Hockey is hockey. But I could choose from Aerosmith (or as they say down here, "ARROWsmith") to Tony Bennett to Sting to Michael Buble to 'Lil Wayne to Lady Gaga to Chicago to the Boston Symphony to Wynton Marsalis and each get totally DIFFERENT crowds with almost no overlap. There's a type of concert for virtually everyone. You can't even compare the two!!!

chickod
04-02-2013, 01:29 PM
Would love to see them find a way to fix the overall issue but at a minimum, put the regionals in major metropolitan areas every year.

Yes. And congratulations, by the way. :)