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Fighting Sioux 23
01-10-2013, 09:17 AM
Well dayum, why isn't the ACLU on this like slop on a hog? Clearly, it's a case of discrimination against Husker men! :D

:p:D:D

It's all about scholarships. How many scholarships are given to Men at Nebraska, and how many are given to Women? If women now have 18 more scholarships than men...we may be on to something.

5mn_Major
01-10-2013, 09:34 AM
Can Lincoln support a big time hockey program, esp with UNO next door? And if they start one, does UNO take a hit? Seems like it would be two big time programs there for a relatively small hockey community.

MGoBlueHockey
01-10-2013, 09:35 AM
Believe it or not folks, hockey is catching on in of all places: Tuscaloosa. Yes, I'm not kidding.

I unfortunately have relatives I was visiting down in Birmingham last year, and you should have seen the packed house for the Alabama "Frozen Tide" ACHA game. They play their games in Birmingham, and I'm not kidding, the place was sold out.

Just some food for thought.

Fighting Sioux 23
01-10-2013, 09:38 AM
Can Lincoln support a big time hockey program, esp with UNO next door? And if they start one, does UNO take a hit? Seems like it would be two big time programs there for a relatively small hockey community.

Omaha is a good hockey community, and I think UNO would be fine. I think the Lincoln USHL squad would be the biggest loser in this scenario.

Red Cows
01-10-2013, 10:29 AM
:p:D:D

It's all about scholarships. How many scholarships are given to Men at Nebraska, and how many are given to Women? If women now have 18 more scholarships than men...we may be on to something.

Yeah, I've since found that that total is the key. I am going to look into this.

Red Cows
01-10-2013, 10:34 AM
I'm pretty sure that if it's not a scholarship sport, the numbers won't count. I think you have to offer a proportional number of scholarships.

It's not starting out as a scholarship sport, you are correct. Whether that changes in the future..............

Red Cows
01-10-2013, 11:49 AM
Omaha is a good hockey community, and I think UNO would be fine. I think the Lincoln USHL squad would be the biggest loser in this scenario.

Agreed.

During the '05-'06 and '06-'07 seasons here in Omaha, we had 3 different hockey teams. The Omaha Lancers (USHL), the UNO Mavericks (NCAA), and the Omaha Knights (AHL).

While 3 teams were too many and the Knights ultimately left for the Quad Cities, there were a couple occasions in that time frame were all three teams were playing at home on the same night here in Omaha, and there was more than 15,000 people, total, at the three venues, those being, the Omaha Civic Auditorium, where the Knights were then playing, the Mid-America Center across the river in Council Bluffs, where the Lancers were then playing, and, at what was then called the Qwest Center, now the Centurylink Center, where UNO plays.

The Knights were, frankly, seen by a lot of people, me included, as unneeded and unwanted interlopers here, though. I never went to a game and would not have. I actually had the pleasure of meeting the Knights GM, Doug Soetaert, at a speaking engagement, right before the Knights first season started, and flat told him to his face I thought the Knights were facing an uphill battle here in Omaha. He was dismayed by my opinion (which I ended up being right about, ultimately).

This is a great hockey town, though. When I moved here in 1990 and found this out first-hand I was stunned. The Omaha Lancers refer to themselves regularly as the Montreal Canadiens of junior hockey in the United States as well "the most successful amateur sport franchise in the United States". They sold out 241 consecutive games at the Aksarben Coliseum in the '90's, where they used to play that has since been torn down. That building seated 6,124 for hockey. And UNO has consistently been in the top 5 or 10 of NCAA attendance every year of the program's existence.

Here's a 5 year old article from NBC Sports on the hockey scene in Omaha:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/17549367/from/ET/

I think UNO would be helped by the presence of a team in Lincoln, not hurt by it. As I said, like FS23 did, also, I think the Lincoln Stars would be adversely affected by a Husker D-1 team, no question, though. The metro area population of Lincoln is around 300,000. This isn't Canada or Minnesota and that's one too many teams, I would think, in a town that size. Lincolnites would obviously cast their hockey dollars at a Husker team--it would be a given.

UncleRay
01-10-2013, 12:15 PM
This is a great hockey town, though. When I moved here in 1990 and found this out first-hand I was stunned. The Omaha Lancers refer to themselves regularly as the Montreal Canadiens of junior hockey in the United States as well "the most successful amateur sport franchise in the United States". They sold out 241 consecutive games at the Aksarben Coliseum in the '90's, where they used to play that has since been torn down. That building seated 6,124 for hockey. And UNO has consistently been in the top 5 or 10 of NCAA attendance every year of the program's existence.I seem to remember a thread that pointed out that UNO comps a lot of tickets and that their paid attendance figures - which I believe are the most relevant - are no where near the attendance figures that they publish (the ones you are talking about).

Red Cows
01-10-2013, 12:49 PM
I seem to remember a thread that pointed out that UNO comps a lot of tickets and that their paid attendance figures - which I believe are the most relevant - are no where near the attendance figures that they publish (the ones you are talking about).

Take a look at this post I made in this season's UNO season thread on this very topic (item #5 on this list):

http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?101583-UNO-2012-13-Season-Thread-Blaising-To-An-Xcellent-Season&p=5580631&viewfull=1#post5580631

This is either BS or the issue is being WAY overstated and I explain why I believe it to be so in my post.

Rhett
01-10-2013, 12:54 PM
It's not starting out as a scholarship sport, you are correct. Whether that changes in the future..............

Looks like the current cap is 4 with the number going up by 1 each of the next 2 school years. NU could just phase in schollies when they add their next men's team. Still wouldn't offset the full 18 hockey rides, but it's a start.

slowe
01-10-2013, 01:11 PM
I think UNO would love UNL having a team. Watching UNO beat up on the Huskers for at least the first few years would be highly entertaining for them I'd imagine...

MGoBlueHockey - you mentioned hockey catching on at Tuscaloosa and being impressed by the crowd, I'd love to hear if people have other comments on attendance numbers for ACHA teams. I saw some numbers regarding the Arizona Wildcats and how they average 3,000 fans and max at around 5,500 when they play Arizona state. They play out of the Tucson Convention Center, which seats around 7,000. This is the exact reason why the ACHA exists. It allows a hockey program to grow and develop interest. I haven't heard anything, but this seems like a perfect target for D1, with that whole problem of a total lack of other programs to play out west... Any other possible surprisingly large attendance numbers or growing programs out there?

Red Cows
01-10-2013, 03:22 PM
Here are the best numbers I could find on scholarships by gender and sport at the University of Nebraska:

Men (9 sports):

Baseball 11.51
Basketball 13
Football 85
Track 12.6 Cross Country is considered a separate sport, but is in this total
Gymnastics 4.75
Golf 4.21
Tennis 4.43
Wrestling 9.68

Women (12 sports):

Softball 11.77
Basketball 13
Volleyball 12
Track 17.53 Cross Country is considered a separate sport, but is in this total
Gymnastics 12
Golf 5.99
Tennis 8
Rifle 3.47
Bowling 5
Swimming 13.19 Includes diving which is NOT considered a separate sport
Soccer 14

Total men's scholarships: 145.18
Total women's scholarships: 115.95

From what I can gather about this, each school is required to submit a compliance report annually about this. While there is no set participation gap that constitutes a violation of Title IX, gaps of 10 percentage points or more (of participation opportunities, not scholarships) raise red flags that schools are likely not complying with the law. There is pretty obviously at least some level of semantics in all this. This percentage calculation is also affected dramatically by the ratio of female to male students overall at a given school. This is all about equitable participation opportunities, not about actual scholarship numbers. I learned a lot about this today looking into it. There is no real regulatory consequence to non-compliance that I can see. The liability appears to mostly be all civil, albeit, one would assume the federal government could bring an action as readily as a individual or a group of individuals could, and probably have in the past.

That said, I don't know what impact 18 men's hockey scholarships at Nebraska would do to their current Title 9 situation. I know this, in any conversation around here about Husker hockey possibilities, I've never heard any Title 9 angle(s) raised. However, that might be just because of sheer ignorance and/or not wanting to think about it/deal with it. One thing is for sure, it has to be a consideration on some level for ANY school looking to add hockey. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

slowe
01-10-2013, 03:55 PM
There is no real regulatory consequence to non-compliance that I can see. The liability appears to mostly be all civil, albeit, one would assume the federal government could bring an action as readily as a individual or a group of individuals could, and probably have in the past.

I'm not that educated about this myself, but you might want to read over a thread in the women's forum about Merrimack being forced to add a women's hockey program due to Title IX issues.

Merrimack to add women's hockey (http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?101255-Merrimack-to-add-women-s-hockey)

In an article linked from that thread it refers to it as a settlement from a gender discrimination complaint. So does someone check Title IX compliance regularly, like an audit? Or how long could Merrimack have gone on out of compliance until someone stepped up and filed a complaint? Either way, I'd definitely call that a "regulatory consequence."

Red Cows
01-10-2013, 04:58 PM
I'm not that educated about this myself, but you might want to read over a thread in the women's forum about Merrimack being forced to add a women's hockey program due to Title IX issues.

Merrimack to add women's hockey (http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?101255-Merrimack-to-add-women-s-hockey)

In an article linked from that thread it refers to it as a settlement from a gender discrimination complaint. So does someone check Title IX compliance regularly, like an audit? Or how long could Merrimack have gone on out of compliance until someone stepped up and filed a complaint? Either way, I'd definitely call that a "regulatory consequence."

Interesting. I didn't know this. Obviously, the dept of education has some level of oversight. My guess is that their situation had to be relatively egregious. Note that enforcement is relative to the current Obama administration's more stringent interpretation/enforcement "policies" according to one of the articles about it. Like I said, there is some level of semantics here. Perhaps I should have used the word politics, instead. Note that this is a "negotiated settlement" but it doesn't say what the actual consequences might have been if they didn't agree to the settlement. This doesn't rise to or is interpreted as criminal activity. I think non-compliance only opens you up to civil lawsuits or a civil lawsuit brought by the justice dept. along the same lines as a civil rights violation, which is what this technically is, I suppose.

Personally, I'd be cool with women's hockey at Nebraska, too, though. That's almost as appealing to as men's to me.

5mn_Major
01-10-2013, 06:51 PM
I think UNO would be helped by the presence of a team in Lincoln, not hurt by it. As I said, like FS23 did, also, I think the Lincoln Stars would be adversely affected by a Husker D-1 team, no question, though. The metro area population of Lincoln is around 300,000. This isn't Canada or Minnesota and that's one too many teams, I would think, in a town that size. Lincolnites would obviously cast their hockey dollars at a Husker team--it would be a given.

Pretty glowing assessment. It appears hockey enthusiasm in Neb is another small positive of inviting UNL to the B1G.

Spartanforlife4
01-10-2013, 07:45 PM
I think UNO would love UNL having a team. Watching UNO beat up on the Huskers for at least the first few years would be highly entertaining for them I'd imagine...

MGoBlueHockey - you mentioned hockey catching on at Tuscaloosa and being impressed by the crowd, I'd love to hear if people have other comments on attendance numbers for ACHA teams. I saw some numbers regarding the Arizona Wildcats and how they average 3,000 fans and max at around 5,500 when they play Arizona state. They play out of the Tucson Convention Center, which seats around 7,000. This is the exact reason why the ACHA exists. It allows a hockey program to grow and develop interest. I haven't heard anything, but this seems like a perfect target for D1, with that whole problem of a total lack of other programs to play out west... Any other possible surprisingly large attendance numbers or growing programs out there?

I had a friend play on one of the club teams at MSU last year. They played Alabama at Munn and he said it was a huge deal they were able to schedule Alabama so I decided I'd go. Walked into Munn and a nearly empty house. I'm fairly certain State didn't even have all the parents show up. Alabama on the other hand, had probably brought 50-60 fans. I'm sure a couple of kids were from Michigan, but there's no way the entire team was comprised of Michiganders, these fans traveled from far far away to watch club hockey.

Also worked with a guy over the summer who had both his sons play for Davenport. They've become a perennial power in the ACHA. Said they went down to Arizona to play Zona and ASU last year and arenas were packed for both games.

I think it could definitely expand westward, and maybe even into the South some, but these teams are gonna need to come in at the same time. I read up on Northern Arizona's club team, and their site says they get 500-750 students to games at an off campus arena. That's what MSU gets or even more for student turn out. If they could get one more team from the southwest to join and perhaps start a reincarnation of the Great West HC, maybe it would be more successful. Yes, there would still be a lot of travel, but there would be at least three schools in AZ and one more in the region instead of one in AZ, one in CA and two in AK, so travel costs would be a little bit lighter. Just a hope and will probably never happen but I'd like it to. Heck, get Bama and Kennesaw to move up, add in one more southern team and all of a sudden UAH can get its own conference in the southeast.

MGoBlueHockey
01-10-2013, 08:11 PM
I think UNO would love UNL having a team. Watching UNO beat up on the Huskers for at least the first few years would be highly entertaining for them I'd imagine...

MGoBlueHockey - you mentioned hockey catching on at Tuscaloosa and being impressed by the crowd, I'd love to hear if people have other comments on attendance numbers for ACHA teams. I saw some numbers regarding the Arizona Wildcats and how they average 3,000 fans and max at around 5,500 when they play Arizona state. They play out of the Tucson Convention Center, which seats around 7,000. This is the exact reason why the ACHA exists. It allows a hockey program to grow and develop interest. I haven't heard anything, but this seems like a perfect target for D1, with that whole problem of a total lack of other programs to play out west... Any other possible surprisingly large attendance numbers or growing programs out there?

Hell, I hope Alabama, LSU, Florida etc. add hockey and make an SEC Hockey league in the NCAA ranks. Then the B1G can kick them around and we can pull the hockey card when they talk about football. :D

Verkligen
01-10-2013, 08:20 PM
One blogger said if Iowa State played in Des Moines at the new Wells Fargo ($130 Mill arena) the hockey program would easily be financially self sufficient. Also, someone on this board (MN Cyclone) mentioned ISU does NOT have to add a women's team. Iowa State has about 23 Male scholarships to give out before their scholarship % equals their schools male/female ratio.

For them to go D1 they need to go outside the box and play some games in Des Moines. Maybe some big weekend games.

And once upon a time ISU played hockey inside Hilton. The arena is already built.

MavsFan
01-11-2013, 12:04 AM
I'm not that educated about this myself, but you might want to read over a thread in the women's forum about Merrimack being forced to add a women's hockey program due to Title IX issues.

Merrimack to add women's hockey (http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?101255-Merrimack-to-add-women-s-hockey)

In an article linked from that thread it refers to it as a settlement from a gender discrimination complaint. So does someone check Title IX compliance regularly, like an audit? Or how long could Merrimack have gone on out of compliance until someone stepped up and filed a complaint? Either way, I'd definitely call that a "regulatory consequence."They don't have to match sport for sport, or else schools would have to have women's football and wrestling. They have to have proportional opportunities and support. For a while, Minnesota State added NCAA women's bowling to provide opportunities and scholarships for women, even though there is no men's bowling team. (It was eliminated a couple of years ago when they cut a bunch of both men's and women's sports.) A lot of eastern schools added women's rowing. Most of the compliance problems are caused by the enormous rosters on football teams.

Schools can be considered in compliance as long as they're making progress toward balance, but someone can file complaints if they think that the school's claims aren't accurate or they're not really trying to achieve balance.

LynahFan
01-11-2013, 06:37 AM
Hell, I hope Alabama, LSU, Florida etc. add hockey and make an SEC Hockey league in the NCAA ranks. Then the B1G can kick them around and we can pull the hockey card when they talk about football. :DCareful what you wish for. If the SEC ever got into hockey, I'm sure that they would go all out. They could fund a team just with the change they find under the couch cushions in the mahogany locker rooms reserved for their 4th string waterboys. Throw SEC-quality facilities, highly paid coaches, and balmy temperatures (not to mention a few southern belles) at those Canadian farm boys, and they would their fair share of blue chippas. Think about how well PSU is doing in their inaugural season with only 2 of those 4 factors - I'm not ready to hand the NCAA title to them yet, but they're going to be relevant a whole lot sooner than a lot of people thought.