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stevehendo34
11-26-2012, 12:14 AM
If your daughter wants to play D3 hockey and is a current High School Jr, should she ignore schools / teams that have little or no Jr. players.
On some D3 teams are there ocations when the older girls will quit playing before their senior year?

eg1351
11-26-2012, 09:24 AM
My advice to your daughter in her junior year would be not to ignore any school at this point. Keep all of her options open and don't burn any bridges.

In D3, there are plenty of occasions where individuals don't play through their senior year. Because there are no scholarships at this level, the ability to attend school is generally not linked to their participation on the team. In turn, as they move into the junior and senior years of study, they might begin to prioritize other things over playing hockey, such as school-work, job experiences, internships, etc.

In short, I definitely wouldn't base your interests in a D3 school on their rosters class-split.

dontyelldad
11-26-2012, 10:08 AM
I would agree: Don't ignore any schools at this point.

The key is to find the "triple fit" > academics, social/environmental and athletic. As we've seen, the school should work, even if your daughter doesn't play a minute of hockey. Some schools, my daughter felt, she couldn't be happy, even if the hockey worked out.

SaskDad
11-26-2012, 11:48 AM
You should also be aware of what coaching is present at the schools you are looking at. Some of it is brutal. If you can , talk to players on the college teams you and your daughter are looking at. Watch they arent hand picked by the coach either. When we visited one school before deciding the coach just let my daughter have lunch with some players and she liked that alot. I am going to write a thread next week wondering why coaching at the D3 level is so bad. In Saskatchewan, we would never allow some the coaching tactics that go on in D3.

OneTimer
11-26-2012, 12:28 PM
You should also be aware of what coaching is present at the schools you are looking at. Some of it is brutal. If you can , talk to players on the college teams you and your daughter are looking at. Watch they arent hand picked by the coach either. When we visited one school before deciding the coach just let my daughter have lunch with some players and she liked that alot. I am going to write a thread next week wondering why coaching at the D3 level is so bad. In Saskatchewan, we would never allow some the coaching tactics that go on in D3.

This is absolutely correct. Some coaches, too many, are terrible or worse. Some are just plain way too young to be a head coach already. There are quite a few great coaches out there also in D3.

It is a big red flag if a recruit is limited in access to current players on the team. The best circumstance is a recruit is allowed to spend the night in a dorm with players away from the coaches. Confident coaches in a good program should never be worried about what players will say about the program, coaches and on.

HockeyEast33
11-26-2012, 01:03 PM
This is absolutely correct. Some coaches, too many, are terrible or worse. Some are just plain way too young to be a head coach already. There are quite a few great coaches out there also in D3.

It is a big red flag if a recruit is limited in access to current players on the team. The best circumstance is a recruit is allowed to spend the night in a dorm with players away from the coaches. Confident coaches in a good program should never be worried about what players will say about the program, coaches and on.

Yes - totally agree - recruits should be allowed to spend time with a broad cross-section of the team away from the coaches. But just because the players are happy doesn't mean that the coach is a good hockey coach, just likable. Unfortunately, not all likable coaches are good/successful so you need to read the players reaction to the coach as both a person and as a coach. I wouldn't think it is a problem if your daughter meets a copy of unhappy players (not everyone will be thrilled about their situation). But a broader unhappiness means something bad is going on.

Also, your daughter should have a chance to interact with non-players at least a little through classes, dorms, meals. At one school this Fall, a player we know was very interested in the particular school. But she discovered during her visit that the women's hockey team was largely segregated (by choice) from the student body and in fact the team and other students treated each other badly. The poisonous atmosphere really turned her off to the school even though she liked the coach and teh coach was well-liked by the players. In fact, a number of juniors and seniors had left the team partially because of the tensions with the rest of the student body, leading to a large number of freshman/sophomores on the team. So get the whole picture.

OneTimer
11-26-2012, 01:39 PM
Go for the academics/major, the cost, the location and finally the hockey team. Hockey should be the 4th, 5th or 6th reason to go to a particular school.

DedicatedFan
11-26-2012, 04:05 PM
This is absolutely correct. Some coaches, too many, are terrible or worse. Some are just plain way too young to be a head coach already. There are quite a few great coaches out there also in D3.

It is a big red flag if a recruit is limited in access to current players on the team. The best circumstance is a recruit is allowed to spend the night in a dorm with players away from the coaches. Confident coaches in a good program should never be worried about what players will say about the program, coaches and on.

I can't stress enough the importance of your daughter doing a few overnight stays at the colleges in which she is interested. My daughter really liked a particular school she had visited, but doing an overnight stay with a couple of the players, attending a few classes, and just spending time on the campus with the team and coach changed her mind about attending that school. Her positive overnight stay at the college she eventually chose was the deciding factor in choosing that school over others. Overnight stays are relatively easy to arrange -- just have your daughter ask the coach and decide on a date that works best for everyone. Maybe she can take in a game or two or a practice and a game during her stay. Good luck.

SaskDad
11-26-2012, 05:19 PM
Yes the most important part of college hockey is the college. Getting a degree or two is the main reason why a person will attend any college. Still dont understand why colleges allow such brutal coaching choices when it will affect recruiting down the road. Tough to attract student athletes when you treat the ones you got like crap.

OneTimer
11-26-2012, 07:38 PM
When looking at the hockey portion of the decision look at these things;

1) The number if players for each class and who graduates. On normal teams about 4-6 players will graduate

2) In addition to the above look the number of forwards, defense and goalies

3) Ask if she is being considered the #1 recruit for that position. Always bargain up. This is a tough but fair question to ask.

4) Ask how many other recruits are being brought in for the next season both overall and for that position. It should match the graduation numbers. If the roster says that 5 people are graduating but 15 recruits are being brought in that is another big red flag. This is over-recruiting. Ethical coaches will not over-recruit. Many coaches do in fact bring in 15 freshmen when they know only 5 players leave the program. It is fair on your part to expect to be on the team for 4 years. An ethical coach will tell you up front you are being recruited to play all four years. That said, almost all teams will or should say they guarantee you get a spot as a freshman but then you have to earn your spot each year. Coaches do have to protect their programs from lazy players or players who think they are entitled.

5) This question will make every coach very uncomfortable but it protects your best interests in the recruiting process. Ask the head coach only, not the assistant coach, if you will ever be a healthy scratch. Especially watch the body language of the coach when you ask this question. The best possible news a recruit can get to this question is an emphatic no. Any other answer you can ask the head coach why you would be a healthy scratch. A highly valued recruit should never be a healthy scratch.

6) Ask if your status as recruit will not change due to transfers into the program (or a very late committing recruit who reached for D1 and was not accepted). A commitment is a commitment on both ends. Everything could look great in December when a commitment is made but all this changes in the Spring when transfers start making decisions on where to go. This is a tricky situation in D3 because of the strong possibility a D1 player might land in the lap of the head coach and no coach will ever turn down a D1 transfer. You can also ask how many players have transferred out of a program and why.

7) It is fair for a coach to ask what other schools you have visited or are considering. While you are not obligated to answer that usually it is in your best interests to do so for several reasons.

These are just a few of the questions that a parent and a player should ask during a recruiting visit. These are tough but fair questions. Sadly, there are coaches who do play silly games in recruiting. Fortunately there are also good coaches out there working to do the right thing for the team and the recruit.

WIrinkrat
11-26-2012, 07:49 PM
When looking at the hockey portion of the decision look at these things;

1) The number if players for each class and who graduates. On normal teams about 4-6 players will graduate

2) In addition to the above look the number of forwards, defense and goalies

3) Ask if she is being considered the #1 recruit for that position. Always bargain up. This is a tough but fair question to ask.

4) Ask how many other recruits are being brought in for the next season both overall and for that position. It should match the graduation numbers. If the roster says that 5 people are graduating but 15 recruits are being brought in that is another big red flag. This is over-recruiting. Ethical coaches will not over-recruit. Many coaches do in fact bring in 15 freshmen when they know only 5 players leave the program. It is fair on your part to expect to be on the team for 4 years. An ethical coach will tell you up front you are being recruited to play all four years. That said, almost all teams will or should say they guarantee you get a spot as a freshman but then you have to earn your spot each year. Coaches do have to protect their programs from lazy players or players who think they are entitled.

5) This question will make every coach very uncomfortable but it protects your best interests in the recruiting process. Ask the head coach only, not the assistant coach, if you will ever be a healthy scratch. Especially watch the body language of the coach when you ask this question. The best possible news a recruit can get to this question is an emphatic no. Any other answer you can ask the head coach why you would be a healthy scratch. A highly valued recruit should never be a healthy scratch.

6) Ask if your status as recruit will not change due to transfers into the program (or a very late committing recruit who reached for D1 and was not accepted). A commitment is a commitment on both ends. Everything could look great in December when a commitment is made but all this changes in the Spring when transfers start making decisions on where to go. This is a tricky situation in D3 because of the strong possibility a D1 player might land in the lap of the head coach and no coach will ever turn down a D1 transfer. You can also ask how many players have transferred out of a program and why.

7) It is fair for a coach to ask what other schools you have visited or are considering. While you are not obligated to answer that usually it is in your best interests to do so for several reasons.

These are just a few of the questions that a parent and a player should ask during a recruiting visit. These are tough but fair questions. Sadly, there are coaches who do play silly games in recruiting. Fortunately there are also good coaches out there working to do the right thing for the team and the recruit.

If you need to be told you will never be a healthy scratch to make a decision to go to a school then you've probably been over-coddled by mom and dad.

The reality is you need to earn it every single day whether you are #1 or #25 on a roster. If you're an athlete and a competitor you should be okay with that. The other reality is that not every single kid can be #1, especially from the day they step on campus. The fact is 95% of kids who go thru the recruiting process are not irreplaceable, especially if they don't have the right attitude or work ethic. Even those who are irreplaceable should still be held to high standards in regards to academics, social responsibility, and if need be, effort. If a coach is scared to send a message to anyone in the right situation, I think that is a problem.

There are certainly some kids that can go into the process with that kidn of sense of entitlement and still come out okay...but if a lot of kids go through it with that attitude they are going to either end up crossing every school that has shown any interest in them off their list, or end up at a school and find out theyve been lied to.

OneTimer
11-26-2012, 08:12 PM
If you need to be told you will never be a healthy scratch to make a decision to go to a school then you've probably been over-coddled by mom and dad.

The reality is you need to earn it every single day whether you are #1 or #25 on a roster. If you're an athlete and a competitor you should be okay with that. The other reality is that not every single kid can be #1, especially from the day they step on campus. The fact is 95% of kids who go thru the recruiting process are not irreplaceable, especially if they don't have the right attitude or work ethic. Even those who are irreplaceable should still be held to high standards in regards to academics, social responsibility, and if need be, effort. If a coach is scared to send a message to anyone in the right situation, I think that is a problem.

There are certainly some kids that can go into the process with that kind of sense of entitlement and still come out okay...but if a lot of kids go through it with that attitude they are going to either end up crossing every school that has shown any interest in them off their list, or end up at a school and find out theyve been lied to.

Yes, absolutely, the coaches have to protect the best interests of the program by making sure that everyone earns their spot and keeping the competition level high. And you correctly point out not everyone can be a #1 recruit. Some players are added for depth and that good to do but you can also be a four year 2nd line player and also never be a healthy scratch. As can be easily imagined coaches will sell parents and especially players the world during the visit and the once the puck drops the next Fall those stories don't hold up and the players are trapped by false promises made during the recruiting visit. That is my main point here.

WIrinkrat
11-26-2012, 10:15 PM
Yes, absolutely, the coaches have to protect the best interests of the program by making sure that everyone earns their spot and keeping the competition level high. And you correctly point out not everyone can be a #1 recruit. Some players are added for depth and that good to do but you can also be a four year 2nd line player and also never be a healthy scratch. As can be easily imagined coaches will sell parents and especially players the world during the visit and the once the puck drops the next Fall those stories don't hold up and the players are trapped by false promises made during the recruiting visit. That is my main point here.

How much of it is coaches selling a bill of goods and how much of it is players/parents hearing what they want to hear instead of what is actually being said? Coaches say "Opportunity" and parents/players hear promises.

The truth is really probably somewhere in between. Coaches may be intentionally vague, and players and their parents hear what they want to hear.

You'd have to imagine that in most cases coaches are smart enough to know that if they go around purposely being dishonest to kids just to get them on campus that word is going to get around eventually. But really, why would a coach feel compelled to sell the world to someone during a visit if they were just a marginal recruit? That doesn't really make sense to me. I'm not saying it's never happened...but what does a coach have to gain by making promises of fame and fortune to a kid that's going to be a 4th or 5th line player and will be in an out of the lineup?

OneTimer
11-27-2012, 12:36 AM
For those that over-recruit they do it with say three or four so called #1 D when they already know two returning players are the best D on the team and also to protect themselves when players transfer surprisingly or just to keep the best possible players regardless of commitment to both returning players and also current crop of recruits. And yes word does get out and fortunately some of this is finally catching up slowly with the culprits.

SaskDad
11-27-2012, 12:07 PM
i understand that you have to keep the team depth as strong as possible but why promise the world to new recruits and then treat your present players so badly. To bench juniors or dress them and not give them a shift only to play rookies that arent near the players or team members can only hurt your program. Rookies know coming in that you earn your spot but when captains and parents are picking the line up shows the hockey program is not a good one.

OnMAA
11-27-2012, 03:09 PM
Rookies know coming in that you earn your spot but when captains and parents are picking the line up shows the hockey program is not a good one.

:confused: Where did you get the idea that parents and captains pick the lineup for a college squad?. Never heard of such a concept in College hockey. Coaches determine the lineup. At the college level parents have no input on line-up choices.

spike
11-27-2012, 03:13 PM
Also, if and when the coach asks what other schools you are considering, tell the truth. If he/she is a good coach with longevity, he/she will already know who is visiting the schools that he competes with. The coaches all talk to each other, too. Chances are he/she already knows the answer to the question but is sizing you up by how you answer.

OnMAA
11-27-2012, 03:15 PM
As far as the original question is concerned:

While the current number of Juniors, can be a guideline to determine which school(s) to pursue, the choice should be based on:

1 - What does your D want to study
2 - Which schools offer those programs
3 - How do the academics fit

Once you have a list of schools from the D3 pool, based on the criteria above, narrow your selections by looking at the hockey component, talk to the coaches, check how many Jr's are there, and ask the coach this question: How many players are you looking for for that recruit year at the position your D plays (F or D or G). Ask questions to the coach about the program, how they incorporate freshmen. Above all, talk to a current rookie if you can.

Good luck.

SaskDad
11-27-2012, 08:44 PM
:confused: Where did you get the idea that parents and captains pick the lineup for a college squad?. Never heard of such a concept in College hockey. Coaches determine the lineup. At the college level parents have no input on line-up choices.

Believe it or not, this is happening.

HockeyEast33
11-28-2012, 01:14 AM
Believe it or not, this is happening.

SaskDad - You seem to have an axe to grind with some particular college program. Not sure what happened there, but my experience is that a situation where parents have any meaningful impact on college coaching decisions is very rare. A situation where players and/or parents perceive that this is happening is more common.

It is somewhat more common for coaches to discuss options with their captains to get the team's view and for captains to have some impact on decisions as a result - it's one of the captain's roles to represent the team to the coaches.