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gojackets
08-22-2012, 11:35 AM
Does the agreement of the D1 and D3 mens National Title Game being held at the same place open the door for the women's finals to be at the same location?

There's been a lot of talk over the past couple of years regarding how that would be a smart move.

dontyelldad
08-22-2012, 12:27 PM
Does the agreement of the D1 and D3 mens National Title Game being held at the same place open the door for the women's finals to be at the same location?

There's been a lot of talk over the past couple of years regarding how that would be a smart move.

From the thread on the Mens D2/3 board, it looks like there is a risk that if the D3 championship is played at the same time as the D1, there is a risk that the NESCAC schools will not participate because of the length of the season .... I assume that the same issue would apply on the women's side.

ARM
08-22-2012, 12:50 PM
The Frozen Fours are so completely different in the men's and women's games in terms of participation and objective that I don't think we can conclude that what the men decide to do should also be done for the women.

As for dontyelldad's point, the D-III and essentially D-I tournament have been held on the same weekend in recent years anyway, so I'd think that is not an issue. I just don't know whether it would benefit either tournament to combine them. It's worth thinking about, but the idea may be a bit away from happening.

gojackets
08-22-2012, 05:22 PM
The Frozen Fours are so completely different in the men's and women's games in terms of participation and objective that I don't think we can conclude that what the men decide to do should also be done for the women.

As for dontyelldad's point, the D-III and essentially D-I tournament have been held on the same weekend in recent years anyway, so I'd think that is not an issue. I just don't know whether it would benefit either tournament to combine them. It's worth thinking about, but the idea may be a bit away from happening.

The points brought up in the past are that the D3 women might benefit by getting increased attendence for their games, which I'm sure the NCAA would love as that equals more money. It would give D3 more exposure too...as well as bring the FF west on a more regular basis :) :)

ARM
08-22-2012, 05:33 PM
The points brought up in the past are that the D3 women might benefit by getting increased attendence for their games, which I'm sure the NCAA would love as that equals more money.If that were true, it might be a reason to do it. However, I haven't seen a good case as to why attendance would increase. The attendance for the "DI" Frozen Fours has been trending downward, probably in part due to it returning to the same host sites too frequently. Eastern school don't seem that interested in hosting. As for more exposure, I'm not sure about that either. It isn't like the men's tournament where they have TV coverage to bring some exposure. The only thing that I could see working well is that the tournaments could mesh pretty well. Play the DI semis on day one, the DIII semis on day two, and then both finals on day three. The flaw in that is practice time for the teams may be at some odd hours.

123kidd
08-22-2012, 06:46 PM
Maybe practice for D3 would be held off site? Or a whole new schedule of events could be presented? Doesn't matter this year, dates are on separate weekends and my guess is its too late to change. The D3 FF will still be at predetermined site in March 2013.

jerrynu26
08-24-2012, 09:25 AM
As for dontyelldad's point, the D-III and essentially D-I tournament have been held on the same weekend in recent years anyway, so I'd think that is not an issue.

I think it is still a valid point, although in a round-about way. If the DIII men's championship is changed to the date of the DI men's, there is a definate possibility that the NESCAC schools may drop out of national tournament play. If that were to happen, it isn't at all far-fetched to assume that the NESCAC women wouldn't follow suit.
That is a loss for everyone.

HockeyDman
08-24-2012, 09:37 AM
Somenone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Final four for the women D1 and D3 held on the same weekend?

Timothy A
08-24-2012, 12:21 PM
The Frozen Fours are so completely different in the men's and women's games in terms of participation and objective.


Can you expand on this? I've always felt it would be a great idea to have the Men's & Women's D1 the same site and weekend and I don't see any big red flag to mixing the 2 in terms of "participation and objective".

gojackets
08-24-2012, 12:45 PM
Somenone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Final four for the women D1 and D3 held on the same weekend?

They are usually the same weekend.

brookyone
08-24-2012, 02:39 PM
I think a lack of appreciation for the women's game by the bulk of fans of the men, particularly the D-I men could minimize any speculative attendance impact for the women. Just my theory.

I still don't think there's a significant crossover among the fans of the men and women. I think there might be a fair % of the women's fans that wouldn't be interested in the added expense per attending if the price of admission were combined. What about the possibility of difficulty for women's fans obtaining tickets...again, if combined? Keep the event tickets separate and it's probably not a problem.

I also lean towards a belief the women's FF deserves to be a stand alone event...and a highlight event of it's own.

If combining the events actually resulted in bigger crowds for the women and fans were not required to buy costly ticket packages to include both events then I'd say it's a fine idea. I'm pretty sure the women would love playing for a bigger audience. I have heard quite a few complaints about the ticket prices for the women's FF every time I've attended. I don't agree with those complaints and to me it seems a real bargain considering the entertainment value...but....shhhh, some of them women's fans are...uh...frugal.

dontyelldad
08-24-2012, 02:49 PM
Folks, pay attention, here.

The NCAA is considering holding the men's D1 and D3 championships on the same weekend, same venue.

http://www.uscho.com/2012/08/20/mens-division-iii-title-game-planned-to-coincide-with-philadelphia-frozen-four-in-2014/

There is discussion that the format of the men's tournament would extend the D3 season, and that therefore the NESCAC schools may decline to participate.

This thread was addressed to the possibility of having the women's D1 and D3 championships held at the same venue, as I guess it's been established that they're already held on the same weekend.

There has been no suggestion that I've seen that the men's and women's championships be combined at any level.

ARM
08-24-2012, 03:22 PM
Can you expand on this?As dontyelldad says, the topic is combining women's DIII and "DI", not men's and women's. So my point is that while there may be some benefit to the men's DIII FF by combining it with DI, it doesn't automatically mean that the same gains would occur on the women's side. The NCAA likes to hold the men's FF in non-traditional markets in an attempt to grow the game. On the women's side, it is tough to grow the game in traditional hockey hotbeds, let alone places where hockey is a novelty. There are a large number of fans of men's hockey that will travel to the FF no matter where it is held. Such fans for women number in the low hundreds. The men's DI tourney has national TV; the women's tourney doesn't currently have any TV coverage at all. Would there be more total fans in attendance by combining the two tourneys? Maybe, maybe not, but it certainly isn't a slam-dunk that it would grow the game. So before a decision is made to lump the two together, someone should perform a decent cost-benefit analysis and figure out whether or not it makes sense for the women's game, not just blindly follow what the men are doing.

zoofer
08-24-2012, 05:24 PM
Just a clarification Arm but I know that we here at UNH would love to host the FF again....we drew a good crowd in 2004(?) and although like everyone else we have seen a drop in our attendance both men and women, it would be nice to have it back East again....you can judge the Whitt yourself this Thanksgiving when you come watch your Gophers play.... :o)

gojackets
08-24-2012, 05:41 PM
As dontyelldad says, the topic is combining women's DIII and "DI", not men's and women's. So my point is that while there may be some benefit to the men's DIII FF by combining it with DI, it doesn't automatically mean that the same gains would occur on the women's side. The NCAA likes to hold the men's FF in non-traditional markets in an attempt to grow the game. On the women's side, it is tough to grow the game in traditional hockey hotbeds, let alone places where hockey is a novelty. There are a large number of fans of men's hockey that will travel to the FF no matter where it is held. Such fans for women number in the low hundreds. The men's DI tourney has national TV; the women's tourney doesn't currently have any TV coverage at all. Would there be more total fans in attendance by combining the two tourneys? Maybe, maybe not, but it certainly isn't a slam-dunk that it would grow the game. So before a decision is made to lump the two together, someone should perform a decent cost-benefit analysis and figure out whether or not it makes sense for the women's game, not just blindly follow what the men are doing.

I'm guessing the cost/benefit analysis would be in favor of combining the tourneys. The women's "NC" tournament is consistently in the hockey "area" and usually in bigger cities that are easier to get to by air. The sites are usually still within the 500 mile limit of many D3 schools, so they wouldn't have to fly more teams. I'm assuming the D3 women's tourney costs the NCAA quite a bit of money. Many of the teams in D3 aren't near a major airport, even to get to Rochester last year teams in the west would have had to have at least 1 layover. It would be easier to get D3 teams to a more major airport. Where's the closest major airport to Plattsburgh or Norwich??

I would think that there is more of a chance of the women's NC fans going to the D3 games on the weekend then there is that the D1 men's fans will bother themselves with the D3 game on the off-night. Thereby increasing the attendence of D3 games. For example, in 2010 when the NC championship was in Minneapolis and the D3 championship was in Gustavus I remember some of the D1 fans saying that they might make the trip down to Gustavus.

ARM
08-24-2012, 06:43 PM
Just a clarification Arm but I know that we here at UNH would love to host the FF again....we drew a good crowd in 2004(?) and although like everyone else we have seen a drop in our attendance both men and women, it would be nice to have it back East again....you can judge the Whitt yourself this Thanksgiving when you come watch your Gophers play.... :o)I was at the Frozen Four at the Whitt in 2005 and enjoyed it immensely, primarily due to what I saw on the ice. I would think that UNH would be an attractive destination, probably just behind Boston. Do any of the fans know if UNH has submitted a bid to host since 2005?

123kidd
08-24-2012, 07:33 PM
In 2013 the womens DI Championship weekend is March 22-24 in Minneapolis while the DIII FF is March 15-16 at a predetermined site. Still to be announced.

zoofer
08-25-2012, 05:19 AM
Officials at the Univ. say they have been bidding on it but who knows......

PrezdeJohnson09
08-26-2012, 07:27 AM
Officials at the Univ. say they have been bidding on it but who knows......

No news to report on the Division III front yet. The chance to bid went out to the universities and sites. I don't know if that window has closed yet or you can still submit.

If I had to guess though at this stage of the game I'd put Ridder Arena in Minneapolis as the front runner. After that the only schools I could see even putting in bids would be Plattsburgh, Middlebury and Norwich. I'm still holding out for the combined DIII championship in Lake Placid but I think that's just a pipe dream.

ARM
08-26-2012, 12:40 PM
In 2013 the womens DI Championship weekend is March 22-24 in Minneapolis while the DIII FF is March 15-16 at a predetermined site. Still to be announced.


If I had to guess though at this stage of the game I'd put Ridder Arena in Minneapolis as the front runner.The problem that I'd see with that is Ridder is hosting the WCHA Final Face-Off the weekend before and the "DI" Frozen Four the week after. Throw in the possibility of hosting an NCAA quarterfinal on March 15 or 16, which the Gophers have done in six of eight years since the tournament expanded, and that's a lot of events in a short amount of time at one venue. They all have to be staffed, so I'd think that it would be more attractive to Ridder to host a DIII FF in a year when they weren't also hosting "DI".