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MattS
01-24-2013, 12:02 PM
Names and destinations?

My guess is that either on of the "have's" of the AHA (Niagara, RMU, Canisius, etc) will leave/form their own conference or one of the "have not's" will fold (AIC/SHU) before someone moves up and into the AHA.

If I did have to guess if someone was to make the move up I would guess Navy as they could absorb the cost much easier than any of the others.

I have nothing to back this up except for experience following college hockey for over 30 years and seeing all of the changes that have happened over that time period.


For years there has been talk about AHA losing members, but reality is just the opposite with 12 teams including several new members in the last 5 years.

I think this is because they had no realistic option to get into any other conference and not because of they thought that AHA was the great conference to be in.

Jim
01-24-2013, 01:16 PM
My guess is that either on of the "have's" of the AHA (Niagara, RMU, Canisius, etc) will leave/form their own conference or one of the "have not's" will fold (AIC/SHU) before someone moves up and into the AHA.

If I did have to guess if someone was to make the move up I would guess Navy as they could absorb the cost much easier than any of the others.

I have nothing to back this up except for experience following college hockey for over 30 years and seeing all of the changes that have happened over that time period.



I think this is because they had no realistic option to get into any other conference and not because of they thought that AHA was the great conference to be in. Not necessarily true. Army and Air Force both left the old CHA to join AHA. RIT elected to join the AHA when it upgraded its program even though the CHA was begging for programs at that point. RMU was originally destined for the AHA but agreed to move to the CHA in what was ultimately an unsuccessful attempt to stabilize it. Likely if there are any more new programs in the northeast that are not B-10/Ivy level schools, they will head for the AHA too. There was also an effort a few years ago to break off the western AHA teams, Canisius and Mercyhurst in particular and move them to the CHA for stability and to allow them to play "higher level hockey." When push came to shove, though, neither one was willing to actually leave. AHA offers an opportunity to compete, at a relatively solid level now, in a league which is pretty stable. And I think the CHA experience clearly showed that unless you have a solid core of teams, deep enough to absorb any defections either due to moves to other leagues, or programs being closed down, it is a very tricky thing to create a league. Why would Mercyhurst, Canisius RMU Niagara want to take that risk again? Who is going to join them to give that stability? And why would it be any different from the current AHA?
Oh and since when has Canisius been a "have?"

MattS
01-24-2013, 02:00 PM
Not necessarily true. Army and Air Force both left the old CHA to join AHA. RIT elected to join the AHA when it upgraded its program even though the CHA was begging for programs at that point. RMU was originally destined for the AHA but agreed to move to the CHA in what was ultimately an unsuccessful attempt to stabilize it. Likely if there are any more new programs in the northeast that are not B-10/Ivy level schools, they will head for the AHA too. There was also an effort a few years ago to break off the western AHA teams, Canisius and Mercyhurst in particular and move them to the CHA for stability and to allow them to play "higher level hockey." When push came to shove, though, neither one was willing to actually leave. AHA offers an opportunity to compete, at a relatively solid level now, in a league which is pretty stable. And I think the CHA experience clearly showed that unless you have a solid core of teams, deep enough to absorb any defections either due to moves to other leagues, or programs being closed down, it is a very tricky thing to create a league. Why would Mercyhurst, Canisius RMU Niagara want to take that risk again? Who is going to join them to give that stability? And why would it be any different from the current AHA?
Oh and since when has Canisius been a "have?"

Army never was in the CHA. Air Force changed to the AHA to be with Army. RIT was never going into the CHA because by then the CHA was dying. I have never heard that about RMU joining the AHA originally so maybe that is true.

You can't compare the failure of the CHA, which was always doomed due to travel, to anything new that might come along. The only reason the AHA is kind of stable is because most of these teams have nowhere else to go. Not necessarily because they are in a good situation or happy about it. If a decent (right) opportunity came along then I think RIT/Mercyhurst/Canisius/Niagara/RMU would jump ship in a heartbeat. The AHA is limited in is scope and opportunity and everyone realizes that. Some colleges are ok with it and some are not but they are all stuck into the same boat at this time.

I think that the nWCHA is doomed to fail just like previous conferences have travel issues. That is why I can see the teams that actually want to compete will leave and join something new.

I consider Canisius as a “have” because the college actually tries to have a winning program and put some effort into it. While the “have not’s” could care less about it.

Chris Lerch
01-24-2013, 02:27 PM
Mercyhrust, Canisius, Niagara and RMU want more scholarships. The Eastern teams are not big on that, and RIT and the service academies are against it for obvious reasons.

Potential new teams that the league went on the record about were St. As, Rhode Island and Navy. They told me that Navy was not going to happen anytime soon and didn't say that about the other two. There was at least one other school that had approached the league but the conversations were so preliminary that they didn't want to go on the record.

On the other side, and I have no better or inside knowledge about this, but you have to worry about SHU and AIC. While there are a lot of reasons to keep these programs but there are unfortunately also many to not keep them. What Niagara did to their women's program scares me, as they had an on-campus rink and a legacy of success. What does that say for programs that don't?

schiegs
01-24-2013, 04:05 PM
Army never was in the CHA. Air Force changed to the AHA to be with Army.

Army was, in fact in the CHA through the 1999-2000 season. They left after that for the MAAC/AHA.


If a decent (right) opportunity came along then I think RIT/Mercyhurst/Canisius/Niagara/RMU would jump ship in a heartbeat.

What would that apportunity look like? Adding a handful of nWCHA teams to that mix? Which nWCHA programs would prefer that new CHA-redux to their current nWCHA blueprint? I argue zero.

And the CHA's travel dilema was not the issue. It was lack of any core stability. The travel costs involved in having the outlier progams pale in comparison to the costs of 11 vs. 16 full scholarships. 5 full scholarships costs a heck of a lot more than a trip to Huntsville. Same arguement goes for nWCHA's travel challenges. Its akin to saying you're going to balance the federal budget by cutting Big Bird.

Jim
01-24-2013, 05:11 PM
Army never was in the CHA. Air Force changed to the AHA to be with Army. RIT was never going into the CHA because by then the CHA was dying. I have never heard that about RMU joining the AHA originally so maybe that is true.

You can't compare the failure of the CHA, which was always doomed due to travel, to anything new that might come along. The only reason the AHA is kind of stable is because most of these teams have nowhere else to go. Not necessarily because they are in a good situation or happy about it. If a decent (right) opportunity came along then I think RIT/Mercyhurst/Canisius/Niagara/RMU would jump ship in a heartbeat. The AHA is limited in is scope and opportunity and everyone realizes that. Some colleges are ok with it and some are not but they are all stuck into the same boat at this time.

I think that the nWCHA is doomed to fail just like previous conferences have travel issues. That is why I can see the teams that actually want to compete will leave and join something new.

I consider Canisius as a “have” because the college actually tries to have a winning program and put some effort into it. While the “have not’s” could care less about it. I'm not certain about Army to tell the truth, but I thought they were one of the original CHA members. Could be wrong. But there are far more issues with teams like Canisius and Mercyhurst forming a new conference or going to one than "effort." And by the way I'd say Holy Cross and Bentley as teams making an effort at least if you go by results. Holy Cross regularly puts competitive teams out there. Bentley has been doing so for several years now. But if yo ulook at facilities, Canisius doesn't have one. They play essentially at D3 Buff State's facility and they draw friends and family type crowds. RIT as a D3 play-up can't give scholarships, and they are frankly going to need at least a couple more teams to make it work. Beyond that I think RIT is pretty happy in the AHA. While I think Niagara of all of the ex CHA schools really is disappointed, I don't have that sense from the others. Although their position might have changed in recent years, Canisius, for example, was never in favor of expanding the number of scholarships in the past. As for AIC, they've had a team officially since the 1950s at least and I think longer than that. Sacred Heart is going through a difficult period for sure, but it wasn't so long ago that they were one of the top teams in the league. Find another Shaun Hannah and they could return to competitiveness fairly quickly I think. It was only 3 years ago that they won 21 games including wins over 3 ECAC teams and made it to the AHA finals. They might need to find a new coach, but they haven't exactly been a disaster of a program forever. I do agree with you that leagues that are not geographically logical have the greatest danger of collapse, too. Travel can be a killer. But with the exception of outlier Air Force AHA actually works pretty well and they have put together their pod system which while not perfect, seems to work. Maybe in 4-5 years the NWCHA decides to call it quits, bu tI think that is one of those Armageddon scenarios that costs a couple of other programs along the way. And I suspect the AHA will look pretty good again.

UncleRay
01-24-2013, 05:53 PM
Army was independent in 1998-1999 (http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/1998-1999/)

They were in the MAAC from 1999-2000 (http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/1999-2000/) until 2002-2003 (http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/2002-2003/)

When they joined the AHA (http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/2003-2004/)

RSTuthill
01-24-2013, 06:05 PM
Original MAAC was Fairfield, Iona, Canisius, AIC, Quinnipiac, UConn, Holy Cross, SHU. Ironic. Two schools have quit hockey and Quinnipiac is #2 in the nation right now. Hats off to Jack MacDonald. The man had a vision and a singlemindedness to get it done. Before the MAAC, the Q was playing in the Hamden HS rink in the ECAC South. I remember UConn beating them 12-0 one year.

schiegs
01-24-2013, 06:19 PM
Army was independent in 1998-1999 (http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/1998-1999/)

They were in the MAAC from 1999-2000 ('http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/1999-2000/") until 2002-2003 (http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/2002-2003/)

When they joined the AHA (http://www.uscho.com/standings/division-i-men/2003-2004/)

Their 1999-2000 USCHO schedule shows conference games as "CH" vs. Bemidji, UAH, Wayne State, et al.

LtPowers
01-24-2013, 07:05 PM
http://www.uscho.com/faq/conference-timeline/

1999-2000: College Hockey America (CHA) forms with Air Force, Army, Alabama-Huntsville, Bemidji State, Findlay and Niagara. Bentley, Mercyhurst join MAAC.

2000-01: Army leaves CHA to join MAAC. Wayne State joins CHA.


Powers &8^]

UncleRay
01-24-2013, 07:06 PM
Their 1999-2000 USCHO schedule shows conference games as "CH" vs. Bemidji, UAH, Wayne State, et al.And then in '00-'01 to '02-'03 shows them in the MAAC, and in '03-'04 they are in the AHA. Confusing.

Edit: unless you read the lieutenant's post.

Snively65
01-25-2013, 01:59 AM
I am unclear whether St. A's would be allowed to play up?

MattS
01-25-2013, 08:18 AM
Army was, in fact in the CHA through the 1999-2000 season. They left after that for the MAAC/AHA.

I didn't remember Army ever being in the CHA and I checked USCHO here: http://www.uscho.com/stats/history/army/mens-hockey/2012-2013/ I assumed USCHO would have it correct.

kingdobbs
01-25-2013, 09:40 AM
I am unclear whether St. A's would be allowed to play up?

The provision about schools being allowed to play up to Division I if Division II does not sponsor a championship in the sport is still in force.

5hole
01-25-2013, 11:41 AM
Army was in the CHA for the '99-2000 season (first season that CHA existed), then after one season moved to the MAAC which, I believe, had started in '98-'99 and lasted until '03-'04 when it became the Atlantic.

gfmorris
01-25-2013, 12:15 PM
Right: they were in the one season, and then they left at the same time that Findlay became a full-time D-I. Remember when the MAAC schools all dropped Findlay en masse? Classy.

GFM

5hole
01-25-2013, 12:19 PM
As for the fall of the CHA ... first of all, I do not believe it was originally contemplated to be a long term solution as a conference. It was formed for scheduling purposes and to give the members a shot at NCAA tournament through the auto bid, for as long as the conference lasted. Meanwhile, every member always was waiting for/hoping for an opportunity to leave for one of the "big four" ... that never really happened, so the conference just continued with some teams (Wayne State, Findlay) dropping the sport.

MattS:
Air Force changed to the AHA to be with Army. RIT was never going into the CHA because by then the CHA was dying. I have never heard that about RMU joining the AHA originally so maybe that is true.
AFA - Believe what you want. I always thought that made a nice cover story but IMAO, Serratore's teams never competed that well when they were in the CHA. I always thought he made that move for easier competition and job security. And it worked.
RIT - agree, by the time AHA made its move to D1, CHA was unstable. Also, they saw the same thing as Serratore - they could compete better in the AHA. Worked for them, too.
RMU - It is true, RMU by most accounts originally wanted to go AHA but agreed to join CHA to stabilize the league after Findlay deep-sixed their program.

Sheigs:
What would that apportunity look like? Adding a handful of nWCHA teams to that mix? Which nWCHA programs would prefer that new CHA-redux to their current nWCHA blueprint? I argue zero.

And the CHA's travel dilema was not the issue. It was lack of any core stability. The travel costs involved in having the outlier progams pale in comparison to the costs of 11 vs. 16 full scholarships. 5 full scholarships costs a heck of a lot more than a trip to Huntsville. Same arguement goes for nWCHA's travel challenges. Its akin to saying you're going to balance the federal budget by cutting Big Bird. CHA-redux: Agree, it does not seem as if the more likely nWCHA candidates (BGSU, Ferris, LSSU) would be interested. In fact, we recently had such a discussion on a Niagara talk board and I argued against the attractiveness of such an idea.
Travel v stability: Travel was a major consideration. Niagara hated the trip to Bemidji; Huntsville was sometimes a problem due to 1) flight considerations (for many years, we had to fly into Nashville then bus it; later years, we were able to go directly into Huntsville) and 2) arena availability - in the later years, dates were often limited because of the minor pro team and I think we had to play some Thursday or Sunday games.
Scholies: I have never understood this argument. Can someone enlighten me? What are the "hard costs" associated with 5 extra scholarships? It seems to me that if the school can find classroom space for five more fannies and a place to house them, then what is out of pocket for the school? In fact, with hockey utilizing partial scholies concept, it can actually be profitable for the school to bring in the extra students who may be picking up at least 25-75% of the tab.
Big Bird: Yeah, well nobody ever said that but there have been plenty of lies told about balancing the budget by Dear Leader.

Jim
01-25-2013, 02:08 PM
As for the fall of the CHA ... first of all, I do not believe it was originally contemplated to be a long term solution as a conference. It was formed for scheduling purposes and to give the members a shot at NCAA tournament through the auto bid, for as long as the conference lasted. Meanwhile, every member always was waiting for/hoping for an opportunity to leave for one of the "big four" ... that never really happened, so the conference just continued with some teams (Wayne State, Findlay) dropping the sport.

MattS:AFA - Believe what you want. I always thought that made a nice cover story but IMAO, Serratore's teams never competed that well when they were in the CHA. I always thought he made that move for easier competition and job security. And it worked.
RIT - agree, by the time AHA made its move to D1, CHA was unstable. Also, they saw the same thing as Serratore - they could compete better in the AHA. Worked for them, too.
RMU - It is true, RMU by most accounts originally wanted to go AHA but agreed to join CHA to stabilize the league after Findlay deep-sixed their program.

Sheigs:CHA-redux: Agree, it does not seem as if the more likely nWCHA candidates (BGSU, Ferris, LSSU) would be interested. In fact, we recently had such a discussion on a Niagara talk board and I argued against the attractiveness of such an idea.
Travel v stability: Travel was a major consideration. Niagara hated the trip to Bemidji; Huntsville was sometimes a problem due to 1) flight considerations (for many years, we had to fly into Nashville then bus it; later years, we were able to go directly into Huntsville) and 2) arena availability - in the later years, dates were often limited because of the minor pro team and I think we had to play some Thursday or Sunday games.
Scholies: I have never understood this argument. Can someone enlighten me? What are the "hard costs" associated with 5 extra scholarships? It seems to me that if the school can find classroom space for five more fannies and a place to house them, then what is out of pocket for the school? In fact, with hockey utilizing partial scholies concept, it can actually be profitable for the school to bring in the extra students who may be picking up at least 25-75% of the tab.
Big Bird: Yeah, well nobody ever said that but there have been plenty of lies told about balancing the budget by Dear Leader. On the scholarship thing you are sort of right, sort of wrong. In theory it doesn't make much difference, but in practice in most schools, the athletic department takes real dollars out of its budget for each scholarship. So if each scholarship is worth $40,000, adding 5 means adding $200,000 to someone's budget then transferring that $200,000 to the tuition fund. In the old days they'd actually write a check. Probably it is done electronically now. What you're really talking about is the marginal cost of an additonal student, and in fact it is probably close to zero for 5 more scholarships. A simple way of looking at it is my old friend's printing business. He used to say the cost of the first business card was $49. The next 500 were $1. It is sort of that way with colleges too. the cost of the first student is millions of dollars. the cost to educate the rest is pennies until you get to some level, then it costs millions again. But that's not how you calculate it. You calculate the cost essentially based on the average cost. It is no different from when a school gives any type of scholarship. They don't just reduce the tuition by 25% if they give you a $10,000 academic scholarship. They actuall transfer $10,000 from the Scholarship fund into the tuition fund.