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SlewFoot
05-08-2012, 04:20 PM
Interesting story in the Star Tribune on Sunday about coaches of nonrevenue sports. The Minnesota women's hockey program lost $690,000+ last year. Considering that Minnesota is one of the more successful women's hockey programs I would bet that many other schools are losing a lot more. This might explain, in part, the recent losses of Niagra and Wayne State and the funding issues with Maine. I don't know if this can be turned around but right now from a fiscal standpoint it doesn't look good. Surprisingly (considering these sports need less equipment and don't have to pay for ice) women's basketball ($2.0 Million), volleyball ($1.024 Million), baseball ($1.39 Million) and wrestling ($816,000) lost more money than women's hockey.


http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/150251465.html
http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/150251295.html?page=1&c=y

ARM
05-08-2012, 07:09 PM
My guess would be that how the cost of ice time is handled in the accounting may vary a lot from program to program. As for why sports like volleyball and basketball lose more, they likely fly a lot more (Minnesota women's hockey only flew to Boston and Columbus to face Harvard and Ohio State respectively). I'd estimate that the salaries for the coaches are also higher for WBB and VB.

I don't know that there is much correlation between the success of a program and limiting the losses. The more successful programs achieve success in part because they spend more, and without much revenue from ticket sales and minimal, if any, TV rights revenue, there isn't really a way to offset those costs.

Call It
05-08-2012, 08:17 PM
Would the NCAA consider following the NFL lead? The NFL has large market teams share with small market teams. How about Basketball & Football contribute toward a fund to help other sports survive?

PurpleEagle4ever
05-08-2012, 09:32 PM
Would the NCAA consider following the NFL lead? The NFL has large market teams share with small market teams. How about Basketball & Football contribute toward a fund to help other sports survive?

I believe this is the mentality of some larger schools.

CrazyDave
05-08-2012, 11:25 PM
Would the NCAA consider following the NFL lead? The NFL has large market teams share with small market teams. How about Basketball & Football contribute toward a fund to help other sports survive?

I believe this is the mentality of some larger schools.
Correct... the revenue-generating sports (football, men's basketball, and at some schools, men's hockey) help offset losses from the non-revenue sports.

Additionally, the revenue-generating sports teams in some athletic conferences have revenue sharing across the conference for post-season appearances (football bowl games and the NCAA men's basketball tourney). Example: Minnesota gets some money because of other Big Ten football teams going to bowl games.

giwan
05-09-2012, 09:45 AM
Interesting story in the Star Tribune on Sunday about coaches of nonrevenue sports. The Minnesota women's hockey program lost $690,000+ last year. Considering that Minnesota is one of the more successful women's hockey programs I would bet that many other schools are losing a lot more. This might explain, in part, the recent losses of Niagra and Wayne State and the funding issues with Maine. I don't know if this can be turned around but right now from a fiscal standpoint it doesn't look good. Surprisingly (considering these sports need less equipment and don't have to pay for ice) women's basketball ($2.0 Million), volleyball ($1.024 Million), baseball ($1.39 Million) and wrestling ($816,000) lost more money than women's hockey.http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/150251465.html
http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/150251295.html?page=1&c=y

I would not believe any numbers from schools regarding sports revenues and losses. Show me the accounting and allow to ask questions, there can be a lot of dirt in the details.

speed_skater
05-09-2012, 06:29 PM
Why are they calling these "losses" - isn't it just an expense? A budgeted expense for that matter...... One could certainly make the case that one sport (or other activity like the drama department or other school supported functions) costs more or less than another, but how is it a loss? These are budgeted programs and some programs require more budget than others, but that's it. You can't compare non-revenue sports or other non-revenue activities to football or basketball (at BCS conference schools) - it's apples and oranges. It's unfortunate that hockey costs as much as it does, and that some schools may opt out of hockey for other lest expensive sports, but it is what it is.

Also what doesn't get factored in are other things that sports programs bring to universities - things like name recognition, alumni pride, and other forms of "goodwill". This isn't a great analogy since basketball is a revenue generating sport, but what the creation of the Big East did for schools like Georgetown and Villanova or the recogniton that being a basketball powerhouse brought to Duke is incredible. These schools - especially Duke and Georgetown are so, so much more competitive to get into today than they were in the early 80's, and A LOT of it has to do with the name recognition and goodwill generated by the basketball teams in the 80's and beyond. Just ask Holy Cross how they feel about not joining the Big East

hocper
05-09-2012, 10:59 PM
Why are they calling these "losses" - isn't it just an expense? A budgeted expense for that matter...... One could certainly make the case that one sport (or other activity like the drama department or other school supported functions) costs more or less than another, but how is it a loss? These are budgeted programs and some programs require more budget than others, but that's it. You can't compare non-revenue sports or other non-revenue activities to football or basketball (at BCS conference schools) - it's apples and oranges. It's unfortunate that hockey costs as much as it does, and that some schools may opt out of hockey for other lest expensive sports, but it is what it is.

Also what doesn't get factored in are other things that sports programs bring to universities - things like name recognition, alumni pride, and other forms of "goodwill". This isn't a great analogy since basketball is a revenue generating sport, but what the creation of the Big East did for schools like Georgetown and Villanova or the recogniton that being a basketball powerhouse brought to Duke is incredible. These schools - especially Duke and Georgetown are so, so much more competitive to get into today than they were in the early 80's, and A LOT of it has to do with the name recognition and goodwill generated by the basketball teams in the 80's and beyond. Just ask Holy Cross how they feel about not joining the Big East

I agree with your point.....I believe schools would just look at athletics expenses as "the cost of doing business". Especially enrollment driven schools which I'm assuming most are.

Hux
05-10-2012, 10:42 AM
Also what doesn't get factored in are other things that sports programs bring to universities - things like name recognition, alumni pride, and other forms of "goodwill". This isn't a great analogy since basketball is a revenue generating sport, but what the creation of the Big East did for schools like Georgetown and Villanova or the recogniton that being a basketball powerhouse brought to Duke is incredible. These schools - especially Duke and Georgetown are so, so much more competitive to get into today than they were in the early 80's, and A LOT of it has to do with the name recognition and goodwill generated by the basketball teams in the 80's and beyond. Just ask Holy Cross how they feel about not joining the Big East

Agree. It is why Quinnipiac made the effort to play D1 and have a top flight arena for its hockey and hoop teams. Quinny was a slightly known school with a pretty well regarded business program that certainly gained a lot of recognition through their athletic teams (and their political polling). Same now with Lindenwood.

SlewFoot
05-10-2012, 11:27 AM
Why are they calling these "losses" - isn't it just an expense? A budgeted expense for that matter...... One could certainly make the case that one sport (or other activity like the drama department or other school supported functions) costs more or less than another, but how is it a loss? These are budgeted programs and some programs require more budget than others, but that's it. You can't compare non-revenue sports or other non-revenue activities to football or basketball (at BCS conference schools) - it's apples and oranges. It's unfortunate that hockey costs as much as it does, and that some schools may opt out of hockey for other lest expensive sports, but it is what it is.

Also what doesn't get factored in are other things that sports programs bring to universities - things like name recognition, alumni pride, and other forms of "goodwill". This isn't a great analogy since basketball is a revenue generating sport, but what the creation of the Big East did for schools like Georgetown and Villanova or the recogniton that being a basketball powerhouse brought to Duke is incredible. These schools - especially Duke and Georgetown are so, so much more competitive to get into today than they were in the early 80's, and A LOT of it has to do with the name recognition and goodwill generated by the basketball teams in the 80's and beyond. Just ask Holy Cross how they feel about not joining the Big East

To be fair the article called them "deficits". I guess that we are in an era of selecting our terminology to fit our needs (e.g. job creator vs. rich, tax vs. fee, etc). Whatever you call it a university has to factor the expenses/losses into funding the university. I would expect that all of us on this board are women's hockey fans and see the value to the expense/loss, or goodwill investment if you will, however the cost of getting an education (which I will call the primary purpose of secondary education) has spiraled out of control. Universities have to look at all of their expenses to keep expenses under control whether it be salaries of teachers, facilities or nonrevenue sports. I think its easy for a university to say a revenue sport with its national exposure is good for the university in goodwill whether it is generating postive revenue or not. I think its a more difficult argument for the nonrevenue sports. How many kids choose to apply to BC because it has a kick *** women's hockey team? or Minnesoata because it has a great men's wrestling team?

OldDave
05-14-2012, 03:05 PM
To be fair the article called them "deficits". I guess that we are in an era of selecting our terminology to fit our needs (e.g. job creator vs. rich, tax vs. fee, etc). Whatever you call it a university has to factor the expenses/losses into funding the university. I would expect that all of us on this board are women's hockey fans and see the value to the expense/loss, or goodwill investment if you will, however the cost of getting an education (which I will call the primary purpose of secondary education) has spiraled out of control....

Since the article was about Minny, I looked at the estimated annual cost of an education there. They show about $29,000 for out of state and $24,000 for in state. If you split their 18 scholarships evenly between in and out of state (which is a pretty good estimate for their roster last year), it comes out to $477,000. This would be the amount the school charged the athletic department for those scholarships. That is not really a loss, just foregone income. The true amount that can be considered a "loss" is the money spent on salaries, equipment, and travel that exceeds income from tickets and donations. You could throw some arena costs into the mix, but I suspect the arena is break-even on its own with all the other users.

Hux
05-14-2012, 04:13 PM
Since the article was about Minny, I looked at the estimated annual cost of an education there. They show about $29,000 for out of state and $24,000 for in state. If you split their 18 scholarships evenly between in and out of state (which is a pretty good estimate for their roster last year), it comes out to $477,000. This would be the amount the school charged the athletic department for those scholarships. That is not really a loss, just foregone income. The true amount that can be considered a "loss" is the money spent on salaries, equipment, and travel that exceeds income from tickets and donations. You could throw some arena costs into the mix, but I suspect the arena is break-even on its own with all the other users.

I don't know about Minny, but most state schools figure athletic scholarships at the out of state tuition rate. (don't ask me why, this is what I have been told by coaches and those close to the programs)

Hockey it's only a Game
05-23-2012, 07:33 PM
Since the article was about Minny, I looked at the estimated annual cost of an education there. They show about $29,000 for out of state and $24,000 for in state. If you split their 18 scholarships evenly between in and out of state (which is a pretty good estimate for their roster last year), it comes out to $477,000. This would be the amount the school charged the athletic department for those scholarships. That is not really a loss, just foregone income. The true amount that can be considered a "loss" is the money spent on salaries, equipment, and travel that exceeds income from tickets and donations. You could throw some arena costs into the mix, but I suspect the arena is break-even on its own with all the other users.

Do the math on the arena cost ..big freezers that never stop running and lights that stay on most of the day ?
Average Hourly rental for D1 Major arena or D3 $500 to $1000 per Hour Times 24 Hours a day for 7 months $$$$$
The Hockey programs do not make revenue (handful of Men"s Programs may WI,BC,MN,OH,MI,)

123kidd
05-23-2012, 08:21 PM
Do the math on the arena cost ..big freezers that never stop running and lights that stay on most of the day ?
Average Hourly rental for D1 Major arena or D3 $500 to $1000 per Hour Times 24 Hours a day for 7 months $$$$$
The Hockey programs do not make revenue (handful of Men"s Programs may WI,BC,MN,OH,MI,)

What? $500-1000 per hour of practice ice at "major DI or DIII arena". Not in MN. Well, maybe at the X. But not at Mariucci, SCSU, Amsoil or Verizon Wireless (Mankato State). Not sure about BSU.

Hockeydad4two
05-23-2012, 11:36 PM
What? $500-1000 per hour of practice ice at "major DI or DIII arena". Not in MN. Well, maybe at the X. But not at Mariucci, SCSU, Amsoil or Verizon Wireless (Mankato State). Not sure about BSU.

I don't know about now, but 5 years ago in Chicago, the going rate was around 3-500/hour for most youth hockey rinks.

giwan
05-24-2012, 08:12 AM
I don't know about now, but 5 years ago in Chicago, the going rate was around 3-500/hour for most youth hockey rinks.

It was $3-500 because that is what the market would bear. Have gotten ice at several DI and DIII rinks for $200 and under in MN, WI and MI. Those rinks were both new and older.

I've also seen youth rinks charger much more $500 plus just because they could.

Hux
05-24-2012, 09:59 AM
Do the math on the arena cost ..big freezers that never stop running and lights that stay on most of the day ?
Average Hourly rental for D1 Major arena or D3 $500 to $1000 per Hour Times 24 Hours a day for 7 months $$$$$
The Hockey programs do not make revenue (handful of Men"s Programs may WI,BC,MN,OH,MI,)

Rink/facilities managers are very conscious of energy costs and kill the lights as soon as the game is over. If the ice isn't being used, the lights aren't on. Average ice rental is more like $300 an hour, if not less, depending on location and the level of community good will in the institution.

SlewFoot
05-24-2012, 10:20 AM
Rink/facilities managers are very conscious of energy costs and kill the lights as soon as the game is over. If the ice isn't being used, the lights aren't on. Average ice rental is more like $300 an hour, if not less, depending on location and the level of community good will in the institution.

I can only speak to the community that I was involved in but rental rates were about $220/hour about 4 years ago. Our rink manager also recruited figure skaters because they paid at a higher rate and rented in 10 minute increments. Despite the revenue the rink manager told me that almost all ice arenas in Minnesota are money losers. They cannot cover their costs with rentals alone and most community ice arenas are supplemented with tax dollars. The problem as it was explained to me was that during the season typically ice is only rented from 4:00 PM to about 10:00 PM during the week but the ice has to be refridgerated 24 hours/day. The energy costs of keeping a rink frozen is very expensive. I would imagine that a University rink is even more expensive to maintain since the ice sheet sits in an arena that is much larger than your typical ice arena. Keeping the ice cold and the humidity out of the air is probably even more expensive. Regardless of the above, I don't think you can look at the rental rates to estimate the cost of ice to a college team if the ice arena is owned by the University. When the University owns the rink I think you have to allocate the true cost (revenues less expenses) of the rink. For example and these dollar amounts are for illustration purposes only and have no reality to them, if a rink's net cost is $500,000 ($100k of revenue minus $600k of expense) and you have a men's varsity team, women's varsity team, figure skaters and two club teams, then if your women's team uses the arena 15% of the time when looking at all of these school sponsored teams then the women's team is allocated $75,000 of the cost. In this example, if the University closes the rink it saves $500,000. We can all argue the good will and asthetics of having a hockey team but there is an expense and the ice rink is one of them which the same can be true for the cost of a science building for the science program.

Stedman
05-24-2012, 08:30 PM
it's $270 an hour prime time where I'm from but if willing to travel out of the city in to small towns where populations vary from 1,000 to 5,000 it can be had for under 150

giwan
05-24-2012, 11:07 PM
it's $270 an hour prime time where I'm from but if willing to travel out of the city in to small towns where populations vary from 1,000 to 5,000 it can be had for under 150

A WI town, Pop. approx 10,000, summer ice for $55