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Go4PuckFan2.0
03-01-2013, 03:18 PM
wonderful comparison...so what were we talking about before all of this sidetracking?

The glory and pre-eminence of the Gopher hockey program.

Perhaps you've heard of John Mariucci?

If not, you should know that he, and him alone, is responsible for the entire known hockey universe.

And rainbows, kittens and federal holidays.

Just sayin...

JDUBBS1280
03-01-2013, 03:27 PM
The glory and pre-eminence of the Gopher hockey program.

Perhaps you've heard of John Mariucci?

If not, you should know that he, and him alone, is responsible for the entire known hockey universe.

And rainbows, kittens and federal holidays.

Just sayin...

Yes, you clearly want to get back on track :rolleyes:

FreshFish
03-01-2013, 04:12 PM
For those who are interested in such things, the first rounds of the 2012 Poser of the Year election are now underway in the Cafe - Polls section.

I mention it here because JDUBBS1280 apparently is a worthy candidate and appears to be ready to assume the mantle from Old Pio. :)

Gurtholfin
03-01-2013, 05:40 PM
For those who are interested in such things, the first rounds of the 2012 Poser of the Year election are now underway in the Cafe - Polls section.

I mention it here because JDUBBS1280 apparently is a worthy candidate and appears to be ready to assume the mantle from Old Pio. :)


While Dubbie would be an excellent candidate, doesn't one have to be in the top 100 in total posts to be eligible?

He'll get there some day. He's building an excellent resume.


That is if OP doesn't just get to keep it for lifetime achievement.

Sisyphus
03-01-2013, 05:46 PM
Clearly it's Quinnipiac. You can close the thread now.

4four4
03-01-2013, 05:49 PM
Yes, I'm sure you'd hold back if there was a discussion of similar nature regarding the NFL on a board you frequent. For some reason I utterly doubt that. Just like you refrain from throwing out the 6>5 here.

Because he knows I will throw out the 2 is greater than 0 comment. Lol

Osorojo
03-01-2013, 05:59 PM
It's strange the unavoidable conclusion that Minnesota is the heart and soul of college hockey does not carry over to Minnesota NHL hockey. I suppose this results from the Wild's polluting of pure Minnesota stock with geographically inferior players - even furriners.

GopherBigGuy911
03-01-2013, 06:00 PM
It's strange the unavoidable conclusion that Minnesota is the heart and soul of college hockey does not carry over to Minnesota NHL hockey. I suppose this results from the Wild's polluting of pure Minnesota stock with geographically inferior players - even furriners.
It did until the North Stars went away. The Mild.... that is another story.

4four4
03-01-2013, 06:07 PM
Funny thing is, this all started because I made a simple post about there being imeasurable factors that should contribute to what makes a program great and was challenged over and over.

It's my opinion. One that I firmly believe in and bet many other people do too. All said, I am sure each and every person here is delighted by how much USA Hockey has grown in this country, and whether or not they want to admit it know that some of the tough decisions the University of Minnesota made very early on and have had the resolution and determination to stick with played a big factor in that growth.

If you didn't agree that these immeasurable factors should be a factor in a team's greatness, you should have just politely agreed to disagree instead of engaging in the discussion.

Yet, the group think on this board to fight the reality that Minnesota's recruiting philosophies have had any other meaning or impact other than just "Minnesota being provincial" is so strong that any time the subject is brought up it is met with an unequivocal attack on the poster.

It's just discussion. If you disagree, then disagree. But the lengths that some go to in order to "disprove" that Minnesota's recruiting philosophies have had any meaningful impact on USA or college hockey is disappointing. Especially when it comes from fellow Gopher fans.
Hey look you have done a great job making your point but this is a college hockey message board for everybody. Many of them will never ever ever care about gopher hockey to bad for them but you made your point and move on. You are not going to be able to change their minds. Just trying to help.

JDUBBS1280
03-01-2013, 06:21 PM
Hey look you have done a great job making your point but this is a college hockey message board for everybody. Many of them will never ever ever care about gopher hockey to bad for them but you made your point and move on. You are not going to be able to change their minds. Just trying to help.

Thanks :)

Slap Shot
03-01-2013, 07:19 PM
Is Dubbers the dope, or should that label belong to those that keep trying to reason with him?

:)

Ahem.

LynahFan
03-01-2013, 11:58 PM
Knowing that Minnesota won a title with an in-state roster has about the same meaning for me as if some team had won one with a roster of players whose last names were all in the first half of the alphabet - simply an answer to a trivia question.

Also note that the question asked of Campbell was the best thing to happen to USA hockey, not the best accomplishment by an NCAA team. If not one single American had ever played NCAA hockey, the accomplishments of NCAA hockey teams would have been exactly the same - 65 NCAA titles won, 260 frozen four appearances made, (approximately) 200 conference titles won, etc.

Gurtholfin
03-02-2013, 12:02 AM
Ahem.


I feel bad when I disappoint you. :(





Wise men never argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who is who.

Slap Shot
03-02-2013, 12:11 AM
Knowing that Minnesota won a title with an in-state roster has about the same meaning for me as if some team had won one with a roster of players whose last names were all in the first half of the alphabet - simply an answer to a trivia question.

Kind of agree. As a hockey fan growing up here it's inspiring and imho it's a very unique and cool accomplishment, but I didn't feel any less proud in '02 and '03 then in the 70's. Moreso I don't find it a reason to puff my chest, overplay its importance nor try to disparage the dozen or so other programs that have had great success all their own. I think that's where these JDUBB loses everyone. Celebrate, don't denigrate or something like that.

Gurt, all good my friend. :)

UncleRay
03-02-2013, 09:57 AM
This discussion has completely changed my thinking. I'm repainting my blue and white M in maroon and gold. Minnesota is the new team of my dreams and will be forevermore held in reverence in my heart. Their accomplishments, philosophies, achievements, joie-de-vivre, and outlook of doing what is best for the greater good as they put their own goals to the side are so superior to the rest of college hockey - and not only all hockey, but the whole of the sports world - that I now declare myself a Gopher fan!! Glory to Mariucci! And curses on Glienke, as a home-grown finalist for Mr. Hockey in the Center of the Hockey Universe for committing to Maine, the second finalist in two years. May his shorts be infested by the offspring of a thousand mosquitos.

mnstate0fhockey
03-02-2013, 11:14 AM
Kind of agree. As a hockey fan growing up here it's inspiring and imho it's a very unique and cool accomplishment, but I didn't feel any less proud in '02 and '03 then in the 70's. Moreso I don't find it a reason to puff my chest, overplay its importance nor try to disparage the dozen or so other programs that have had great success all their own. I think that's where these JDUBB loses everyone. Celebrate, don't denigrate or something like that.

Gurt, all good my friend. :)

I agree with everything you said, but after reading thru the last few pages of this thread I think it's fair to point out that he did go out of his way to give equal credit for championships and try not to disparage other programs.

Personally, I agree with a lot of what he said. Like you, I also think that some of the things the Gophers have been able to accomplish are special. And what it did for American hockey is great. I think most college hockey fans recognize that.

What JDUBBS seems incapable of understanding is that we don't need to be reminded of those accomplishments over and over and over and over and over and over. It gets really old. And the fact that he hasn't learned that lesson makes me think he never will.

There's a fine line between arrogance and pride and he crosses that line far too often.

UMICH
03-09-2013, 05:23 AM
Everyone would earn an extra point except Minnesota, but with their extra point for the tradition bonus, the rankings would be exactly the same.

Not Michigan, but we're so far ahead we don't need that stinkin' point...

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-12-2013, 11:04 PM
You continue to not answer my questions. The reason is because they are coaches' philosophies, not the University's philosophy. Woog had an All-Minnesota policy. Lucia changed that. If it was the University's philosophy, my guess is that Lucia would have been fired. Universities don't like people coming in and trying to change their philosophies. If a new coach came in and recruited solely Canadians, and they won 3 titles in 4 years, they wouldn't be fired either. Or, why did Minnesota go after Dean Blais around the turn of the century? He was known for recruiting kids from all over. If Blais had decided to take the job, it would have conflicted with this mythological philosophy that you think Minnesota has. In sum, it's a coach's recruiting philosophy, not a University philosophy.



Mile High Hockey ---

You are so wrong. It is the "general" philosophy of UMn that if a coach can recruit mostly from the state of MN & in so doing, become successful, the university is MORE pleased than if the coach had recruited mostly from out of state & been equally successful.

I wouldn't even doubt it if "in general", the University holds its coaches to a lower standard when they see that the coach is making an effort to give Minnesota kids opportunities to play at the next level. Evidence of this "general" policy can be seen in every single sport at UMn as far as I can tell. W's Soccer, W's hockey, Ms & Ws CC, VB, Ms & Ws BB, Wr, fb, softball, baseball, Ms & Ws Golf, etc..

Is it tolerated when a coach starts to recruit outside of the state of MN?! Yes, sure it is, BUT, it is expected of that coach to then show a measureable amount of improvement on the field or court because of this outside talent being brought in.

Examples of this are the Australians & English golfers, the Brazilian VB player, the Finnish women's hockey player, the Austrian mens hockey player. It's also deemed quite acceptable to bring in recruits from Wisconsin, Iowa and the Dakotas, too.


But the one thing ALL of those out-state and foreign recruits had in common? They were beyond good, they were extraordinary athletes AND, they were ALWAYS in the minority on the roster. There were always more Minnesotans on every one of those teams than players from outside of MN combined.


The other thing about coaches & how they recruit at UMn. They do it because its the best thing for the state and program at the same time. Bringing in the BEST players from the Dakotas & Wisc to play hockey for us, keeps those players from playing for our conf opponents, and makes us good enough that other MN superstars grow up wanting nothing more than to be Gophers when they grow up.

Bringing in a few select superstar wrestlers from Iowa especially and also other parts of the country, makes UMn one of the best programs in the country, for the young wrestlers growing up in MN to strive to want to be a part of. And wrestling in the state of MN thrives, more than in most other states, in part because of the "general" philosophy of UMn & ALL of its coaches.


You make it sound like its only the coaches philosophy?! Well, in part that is true, but then its obviously the Universities policy to ONLY hire coaches who have similar philosophies to that of Mariucci.


You claim that if some coach came in and starting recruiting only Canadians, that they wouldn't get fired!?!

You are wrong!!!! They'd get fired first chance the school found to do so.

Minnesotans as a people, the whole state, "in general", likes seeing its local boys and gals stay home. Their families like their children to stay close to home. Their friends like it. Their fans like it. The fans of ALL Gopher sports teams like it and PREFER it, as long as it doesn't handicap the team too much.

And the more money involved in the sport, like with cbb and cfb, the more lax the University and the public and fans are when it comes to keeping to that "general" policy. More so with fb, because its gotten virtually impossible to field a competitive team with only MN players. The same is not so true with basketball, and never has been true with hockey.

Which leads me to answer your 2nd question.








On the flip side, my second question (which you never even addressed) addressed the issue that if you are going to praise a University for doing well under a coach's vision, and give that University extra credit, then you should also punish that University and deduct extra points when they do not meet standards.



Your idea that if you are going to praise a University for doing well under a coach's vision, and give that University extra credit, then you should also punish that University and deduct extra points when they do not meet standards is actually fine, I suppose?! And I am sure I know exactly what you are trying to claim, that Woog followed that philosophy and failed, so Lucia had to change the policy and then he succeeded, and that's WRONG, it is not accurate, its bullsh1t.


Woog did not fail. In many ways Woog was very successful. He took the Gophers to 4 straight FFs. And people simply were spoiled by the success of Broten, and felt finishing 2nd wasn't good enough. He missed the FF for 4 years straight before returning in back to back seasons, only to drop off again. And instead of trying to figure out what the complex issues might have been that all seemed to conspire against Woog to prevent his teams from winning a Natl Title, they lazily pointed at his policy of only recruiting Minnesotans as the problem. So Lucia brought in one North Dakotan, and an Austrian, and one more from out of state I think, that all were big factors in helping his win those 2 Back to Back Natl Titles.

Those 2 titles bought him a lot of grace from Gopher fans when HIS new philosophy, which was STILL to recruit primarily Minnesotans, backfired and he recruited SO INCREDIBLY WELL, that we suffered what the bluebloods in cbb suffer from, players coming in and doing the one and done thing, before they really even contribute in a significant way. I think that some of those guys left just a little too early. Each of them probably could have be well served to play one more year, but then again, most of them are doing well and making millions now in the NHL. But had he come up short those 2 seasons, and they were close games, he would have felt a lot more heat during those years the Gophers slumped.


See, the issue with Woog was complicated. There were plenty of good enough Minnesota boys that could have come to Minnesota who didn't for whatever reason, and had those players come, we probably would have had just as good a team, made up completely of Minnesotans. But when local boys choose to go out east, or up to UND or to UMD for whatever reason, maybe to get away from the parents or for an adventure or who knows, maybe their high school coach got snubbed by the Gophers and directs all his players away from Minnesota? But all Lucia did basically, was bring in a few out-staters to make up for the top notch in staters that went elsewhere. Once he got a couple of those outsiders to combine with a core of great upperclassmen players that WOOG had recruited & won those 2 titles, then he didn't have a problem getting all the top MN players wanting to come here, but you can only take so many, and if you go after these 3 first, these other 2 feel miffed and go somewhere else out of spite maybe, and maybe one of those end up being better than one of the 3 you went after first? And as Lucia found out, when you become so popular that you get the absolute best wanting to come here, and then they leave after just 1 or 2 ssns before even helping you to win a Natl Title first, then you are left scrambling to find replacements & it throws everything off.

Now we've recovered, we've got some young good guys who weren't quite ready to bail after last year, and hopefully they will get us a title this year before they bolt, and more than we'd like just might? If they don't leave, we'll be UBER good next year. But eventually these great players will leave, and where will Lucia look first to replace the players leaving?

He'll look for the best local talent, first. He'll get the best locals to fill our needs, and then look elsewhere if there is more space available, except of course when that superstar is found then you hope to get them and surround them with the best local talent.


Another thing about Woog, he was having to deal with in-state schools moving up to Div 1 and recruiting against him as well, which wasn't much of an issue for Mariucci or Broten. In fact, Broten was one of the people who really helped boost SCSU up to Div 1.




So go ahead and TRY to deduct points or punish UMn for its failures, but there are none really. Lucia's only made it to 4 FFs in his 12 years of coaching at UMn. Woog made it to 4 FFs in a row & had gotten UMn to its 6th FF in just his 10th or 11th year or something like that? So if Lucia gets UMn to the FF this year, he'll still be behind Woog in that dept, but yes, of course, Lucia's got those 2 Titles. Basically both coaches started out with a bang, and kind of had a hard time maintaining their momentum. Woog suffered also from players leaving for the NHL which was becoming more & more of an issue throughout his time at UMn.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Woog was super incredible the best ever, he had flaws and he made some mistakes that probably cost him a few more FFs and some Titles. Lucia has some flaws as well and has made some mistakes, too.



My guess is that since your school was one of the WORST when it came to recruiting overaged Canadians, that you have THAT as your motivation for trying to prove JDUBBS comments and ideas to be wrong. If he is right, then what does that say about your school? Eh?!

UncleRay
03-13-2013, 09:50 AM
Looks like we've found jdubbs new username. Or maybe this is his mom on the computer upstairs.

LynahFan
03-13-2013, 09:58 AM
I dunno - does JDUBBS negrep? 'Cause this new clown does.