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NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

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  • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

    Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
    Except, the difference is that recruiting primarily (and for a while exclusivley) in-state was an institutional philosophy started by John Mariucci and carried on by all his successors. Mariucci didn't win that title that Campbell called "USA Hockey's greatest achievement". Brooks did. Not to mention, I fail to see any connection Kennedy had with Harvard's hockey program.
    As has been explained earlier, I think you're over-emphasizing Campbell's quote. Plus, Brooks won with a bunch of Sonmor's kids. That being said, it was a very impressive feat given the time and what was surrounding college hockey. Further, I don't think there is anything wrong with tying Mariucci's accomplishments/vision to the University; however, it should be noted that it was Mariucci's vision (that the coaches that followed him shared), and not the University of Minnesota's. As a result, in the context of accomplishments by the program, I wouldn't put as much weight on those sorts of accomplishments/visions from individuals. Now, I would certainly look at that when considering something like the Greatest Coach of All Time, or the Most Important Person to college hockey type discussion.

    As for Kennedy, people were simply asking who should get credit. If anyone, it should be the sponsor's of the bill and the President that signed it. Using your logic, whatever University produced/employed those people should get the credit. As for Kennedy's connection to the hockey program, I have no idea whether he had any connection, discussions, or anything of that sort with the program. My guess is you don't either.

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    • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

      Few things Mile High -

      No, I'm not over-emphasizing Campbell's quote. He called it USA Hockey's greatest achievement for a very clear reason, which he made pretty clear. I'm not going to keep rehashing this. Provide evidence that he wasn't sincere or that his claim was disputed by USA Hockey or else I will not be addressing this further.

      And Brooks won 3 titles with only Americans. Two with only Minnesotans. I disagree that he used mostly Sonmore players to win the 1974 title (read the book), but he certainly didn't win the 1976 and 1979 titles with Sonmore's guys.

      As for attributing coaching philosophies or decisions to the program, you are really starting to reach. Coaching decisions impact all aspects of what makesa program great. Whom to recruit, whom to play, what style of hockey to play, etc. These decisions impact how many games and titles they win, which is something you all are clearly using to measure a program's "greatness". Therefore, I see no reason why a program's coaches' decisions that significantly impact the growth of hockey in this country shouldn't be factored into a program's greatness too.

      Mariucci and Brooks are both in both of the Hockey Hall of Fames. Mariucci is in both exclusively for what he did at Minnesota that had an impact on hockey in this country. That cannot be ignored when measuring the "greatness" of Minnesota's program. Many other schools/programs may not have been as patient while he struggled early while growing the sport in-state.

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      • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

        And I was being facetious when I asked which program should get credit for that federal program. No program should, and it's impact on the growth of hockey in this country was, in my opinion, grossly over-stated by the poster. He provided no support for his claim at all.

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        • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

          Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
          I'm not going to keep rehashing this.
          Do you promise?
          bigmrg74: "You can't drink the day away if you don't start early!"
          SledDog: "UncleRay seems to be the most sensible one here tonight."
          All great men are dead and I'm not feeling well.
          A Margarita! in every hand and another Margarita! in the other hand!

          And stay off the lawn!

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          • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

            Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
            As for attributing coaching philosophies or decisions to the program, you are really starting to reach. Coaching decisions impact all aspects of what makesa program great. Whom to recruit, whom to play, what style of hockey to play, etc. These decisions impact how many games and titles they win, which is something you all are clearly using to measure a program's "greatness". Therefore, I see no reason why a program's coaches' decisions that significantly impact the growth of hockey in this country shouldn't be factored into a program's greatness too.
            I understand that you feel that way. I just fundamentally disagree. In my opinion, you are confusing Mariucci's vision with University of Minnesota accomplishments.

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            • Originally posted by UncleRay View Post
              Do you promise?
              That singular point? Yes. Commissioner Campbell was sincere in his comment that Minnesota's 1974 championship was USA Hockey's greatest achievement up to that point. I will not reply to or acknowledge any remark that says otherwise unless it is supported by evidence that he wasn't being sincere.

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              • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                That singular point? Yes. Commissioner Campbell was sincere in his comment that Minnesota's 1974 championship was USA Hockey's greatest achievement up to that point. I will not reply to or acknowledge any remark that says otherwise unless it is supported by evidence that he wasn't being sincere.
                How do you know it was sincere? Look at the context. Think Mitt Romney in this past election...certainly he said some things that he may or may not have meant to a group of people that wanted to hear it. That's what people do all the time. To discard any possibility that it may have been hyperbole, is incredibly naive.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mile High Hockey View Post
                  I understand that you feel that way. I just fundamentally disagree. In my opinion, you are confusing Mariucci's vision with University of Minnesota accomplishments.
                  This whole board is predicated on opinion, so I have no problem if you disagree. Thank you for being respectful of my opinions. I respect yours.

                  In my opinion you have to give the program credit because they hired Mariucci knowing he was going to implement this philosophy and stood by him while he struggled early to implement it. Not to mention, program's get credit for their coaches other decisions that result in wins, so they should get credit for these decisions as well.

                  For instance, recruiting exclusively Minnesotans was only a Doug Woog philosophy, but that philosophy was widely attributed to the program.
                  Last edited by JDUBBS1280; 03-01-2013, 10:35 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mile High Hockey View Post
                    How do you know it was sincere? Look at the context. Think Mitt Romney in this past election...certainly he said some things that he may or may not have meant to a group of people that wanted to hear it. That's what people do all the time. To discard any possibility that it may have been hyperbole, is incredibly naive.
                    Because he said it and there is no evidence he wasn't being sincere.

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                    • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                      Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                      And I was being facetious when I asked which program should get credit for that federal program.

                      No one believes this...

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                      • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                        Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                        For instance, recruiting exclusively Minnesotans was only a Doug Woog philosophy, but that philosophy was widely attributed to the program.
                        Let me ask you two things:

                        1) If it was Minnesota's philosophy, then why did it change when a new coach came in?

                        and

                        2) Should Minnesota then be appropriately deducted points for failing under this system, especially in the final years of the Woog era?

                        Comment


                        • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                          Cheap and readily available natural ice didn't do much to create growth in ice hockey in the 30+ U.S. states located below 38 degrees N. latitude. Canada and U.S. border states may be able to get by with natural ice, but the vast majority of today's players learned their skills on rinks with compressors. Top quality recruits from states such as California, Florida, and Texas are steadily increasing in numbers. No state has a monopoly on inborn hockey skills or coaching. Before the Outdoor Recreation Act of 1962 some few states (and Canada) had a virtual monopoly on ice time, and we know what that meant.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mile High Hockey View Post
                            Let me ask you two things:

                            1) If it was Minnesota's philosophy, then why did it change when a new coach came in?

                            and

                            2) Should Minnesota then be appropriately deducted points for failing under this system, especially in the final years of the Woog era?
                            Minnesota really hasn't swayed too much from this philosophy. They still recruit primarily only Americans and primarily just from Minnesota. Lucia won his first championship with just Americans, and his second with just one Canadian. The program is still giving more opportunities to play to more American kids than any other program.

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                            • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                              Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                              Minnesota really hasn't swayed too much from this philosophy. They still recruit primarily only Americans and primarily just from Minnesota. Lucia won his first championship with just Americans, and his second with just one Canadian. The program is still giving more opportunities to play to more American kids than any other program.
                              If you would answer my questions please.

                              Also, I seem to remember one very non-American player on Minnesota's 2002-2003 team that wasn't Canadian.

                              Comment


                              • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                                Not sure why it's so hard to give the University of Minnesota the credit they are due. I have openly admitted above that Minnesota has fallen short of a number of programs when it comes to on ice achievements. In that regard I think FS23's rankings are pretty good and I don't think I could do any better.

                                But if the conversation is turned to greatest programs in all aspects, or maybe most important programs would be a better description, I don't know, i think factors such as these should be included as well.

                                Let me shift the focus away from Minnesota for a second. Are their any factors/achievements of this type for other programs that set them a part or make them important? I would genuinely love to hear them.

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