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css228
03-26-2012, 12:49 AM
I hate to play this card, but every time an ECAC team achieves something good, the hockey snobs deride the accomplishment because it "never" happens, so when it does happen, it's not legitimate. But, Union is in the Frozen Four and there is no argument that their admission standards (as well as those of any other ECAC team) are far tougher than most, if not all of the teams n the so-called power conferences. Not to mention academic standards, lack of scholarships, etc. My point is simple, the rules by which the ECAC teams choose to conduct their hockey programs puts those schools at a competitive disadvantage compared to the schools in the power conferences. ECAC fans understand that the conference will not have as many teams qualify for the NCAA tournament. They also understand that winning games in the tournament is less likely. What they don't understand is why fans of the schools of the power conferences would discredit accomplishments such as Cornell beating Michigan, Yale beating UND two years ago, and, especially, Union making it to the Frozen Four. Lets make a deal. You don't play the ECAC is not a legitimate hockey conference card, and we won't play the our schools are academically superior card.

I also hate to trot out this attitude, but there's definitely two tiers when it comes to ECAC Hockey. There are the top teams, who usually can play with anyone in the country (Cornell almost the entire Schafer Era, Union this year, Yale the past 3 years, whoever else has been at the top of the league previously) and then the rest of the league. It's just no a deep league. The top teams are always far an away better than the rest of the league, except the few years where the entire league sucks. Only one school consistently has any presence on the national scene. I'm as big a fan of ECAC Hockey as anyone, and Union making a Frozen Four is huge for the conference, but two days ago we were making a big deal about two of our teams advancing to the regional final. Until we do that with regularity, and start advancing more teams to the Frozen Four, why should we be taken seriously? I mean in between Cornell and Union's Frozen Fours the AHA and CHA both had squads make the final weekend. Its a shame my Big Red couldn't pull it out vs. Ferris, because that would have been huge for the conference (guaranteeing a spot in the title game) and I wish Union the best of luck in the Frozen Four, but until the rest of the conference (outside the top 2-3) starts pulling its weight in OOC games so we get more teams in (I'd like to get 3 every year if possible) and until we consistently have a presence in Regional Finals (other than Cornell who have almost as many wins as the rest of the conference in tourney play during the Schafer Era) and often have a presence in the Frozen Four, I'm not sure we should be seen as much more than a step above AHA play. Anyway, I don't mean to denigrate the conference, because I get a lot of enjoyment from traveling around the league and seeing Cornell play at the various barns (by far the best league in terms of rinks b/w Lynah, Appleton, Ingalls, Cheel, and Hobey), but we just need more results. Cornell needs to start winning more than one game in the NCAA Tournaments, Union needs to keep doing what its doing, Yale needs to get back to where it was the past few years, and the rest of the league needs to step its game up collectively. What this year showed was progress. Lets hope it wasn't a fluke. Good luck Union!

cornellgradyalefan
03-26-2012, 07:26 AM
You make good points about the lack of depth in the league. My point is that the hockey snobs will always find some way to knock down the ECAC teams that do well in the tournament. I recall reading a post yesterday from someone saying they would have been more impressed with Union winning the East Region if it hadn't been the weakest region. All teams play the hand they were dealt and to advance must defeat teams in their bracket. If they win, as Union did, its a huge accomplishment. But I guess since the ECAC isn't a legitimate league, it's not a real accomplishment. Ridiculous.

Dirty
03-26-2012, 07:32 AM
You make good points about the lack of depth in the league. My point is that the hockey snobs will always find some way to knock down the ECAC teams that do well in the tournament. I recall reading a post yesterday from someone saying they would have been more impressed with Union winning the East Region if it hadn't been the weakest region. All teams play the hand they were dealt and to advance must defeat teams in their bracket. If they win, as Union did, its a huge accomplishment. But I guess since the ECAC isn't a legitimate league, it's not a real accomplishment. Ridiculous.

Exactly. It's about time you catch on. For talking about how difficult their favorite school is to get into and thus thinking this makes them super smart, most ECAC fans sure are slow to figure out things like this.

LTsatch
03-26-2012, 08:38 AM
Funny thing is, after all of our arguing and touting of teams, 54 out of 58 teams are all in the same boat today. Nice to see four conferences represented in the final.

VermontfaninNY
03-26-2012, 09:03 AM
I would argue the exact opposite. If anything ECAC this year has been a much deeper conference than most others in terms of competitiveness and depth, even if they are a step behind the other leagues this year. For example Clarkson in the last two weekends went from 5th to 3rd with 3 points over Cornell and Colgate, and then from 3rd to 6th with losses to Harvard and Dartmouth. 4th - 9th place was separated by 4 points. In Hockey East 4th-9th place was separated by 10.

As for how they fare against other leagues, it depends on the year. Last year they had a better out of conference record than Hockey East did, and yet they went 1-3 in the NCAA. This year they were clearly a step behind Hockey East, but have gone 3-1. You can take it any way you'd like, but the bottom line is ECAC is probably closer to the other leagues than most people would admit.

UncleRay
03-26-2012, 09:58 AM
I would argue the exact opposite. If anything ECAC this year has been a much deeper conference than most others in terms of competitiveness and depth, even if they are a step behind the other leagues this year. For example Clarkson in the last two weekends went from 5th to 3rd with 3 points over Cornell and Colgate, and then from 3rd to 6th with losses to Harvard and Dartmouth. 4th - 9th place was separated by 4 points. In Hockey East 4th-9th place was separated by 10.That's not deep, that's parity within the league. Deep is how you do on a national scale. Like putting 3 teams in the Pairwise top 10.

Dirty
03-26-2012, 10:03 AM
That's not deep, that's parity within the league. Deep is how you do on a national scale. Like putting 3 teams in the Pairwise top 10.

But the WCHA stunk this year. So putting three teams in the PWR Top 10 isn't depth either. I say depth is just not being the EZAC.

Kepler
03-26-2012, 10:17 AM
I'm sure Wesh will be gone though. He's almost graduated and he's got pros calling.What's "almost" mean? Only one more semester of eligibility?

Good luck to Union in Tampa. They played fantastic hockey in their Regional and were head and shoulders the best team. A solid representative of the ECAC. There will be a ton of Cornell fans at the F4 (there always are), and I'd say 90% of them will be rooting for the Dutchmen.

Kepler
03-26-2012, 10:20 AM
If Union wins the national championship, are you guys going to try to poach Rick Bennett in order to get that third championship? :eek::p:D

We'll have to swipe the color, too. Garnet, right? ;)

FlagDUDE08
03-26-2012, 10:26 AM
We'll have to swipe the color, too. Garnet, right? ;)

It'd make it easier on our fans. ;):p

Jon
03-26-2012, 11:10 AM
Dirty, what kind of test do you have on that line?

Dirty doesn't even have to chum the water. Very impressive.

sshablak
03-26-2012, 11:45 AM
Are "Dirty" and "Red Cloud" the same person ? They sure post alike !!

TimU
03-26-2012, 01:22 PM
I would argue the exact opposite. If anything ECAC this year has been a much deeper conference than most others in terms of competitiveness and depth, even if they are a step behind the other leagues this year. For example Clarkson in the last two weekends went from 5th to 3rd with 3 points over Cornell and Colgate, and then from 3rd to 6th with losses to Harvard and Dartmouth. 4th - 9th place was separated by 4 points. In Hockey East 4th-9th place was separated by 10.

As for how they fare against other leagues, it depends on the year. Last year they had a better out of conference record than Hockey East did, and yet they went 1-3 in the NCAA. This year they were clearly a step behind Hockey East, but have gone 3-1. You can take it any way you'd like, but the bottom line is ECAC is probably closer to the other leagues than most people would admit.

Agreed.

bigblue_dl
03-26-2012, 01:25 PM
Are "Dirty" and "Red Cloud" the same person ? They sure post alike !!Seriously?

TimU
03-26-2012, 01:29 PM
That's not deep, that's parity within the league. Deep is how you do on a national scale. Like putting 3 teams in the Pairwise top 10.

It's both. I think the point was made to counter the argument that the ECAC has a couple of quality teams, and then there's a big dropoff. That's actually much more true for the WCHA, the CCHA, and Hockey East. Their top teams are consistently better than anybody in the ECAC, but the next tier of teams doesn't look much different than the middle-of-the-pack ECAC teams. There is more parity in the ECAC for sure. But I also think he's right that the gap between the ECAC and the top 3 conferences isn't as big as many people think. There are a lot of good teams in the league beating each other up throughout the season. Even the ECAC champions can't consistently keep up with the BCs of the world, but that doesn't mean that the league is made up of terrible teams.

SlyFoxMan7
03-26-2012, 02:52 PM
I also hate to trot out this attitude, but there's definitely two tiers when it comes to ECAC Hockey. There are the top teams, who usually can play with anyone in the country (Cornell almost the entire Schafer Era, Union this year, Yale the past 3 years, whoever else has been at the top of the league previously) and then the rest of the league. It's just no a deep league. The top teams are always far an away better than the rest of the league, except the few years where the entire league sucks. Only one school consistently has any presence on the national scene.

This also applies to Hockey East. Take out Boston College and Boston University and Hockey East is not an impressive league. Maine had been good in the past and is okay now but nothing special. And then the lower tier teams of Hockey East are just plain bad.

css228
03-26-2012, 03:04 PM
This also applies to Hockey East. Take out Boston College and Boston University and Hockey East is not an impressive league. Maine had been good in the past and is okay now but nothing special. And then the lower tier teams of Hockey East are just plain bad.

The difference is that they have more than two national tier programs at at time. I'm not expecting Brown to suddenly be more than one of the ten worst teams in the county, but I'd say that our middle is just far more mediocre than their's. ATM Cornell and Union can play with any team in the country. Cornell has been doing it pretty consistently for a decade now. But Q-Pac has been about to have a breakout season for a half a decade now, the North Country isn't as intimidating as it once was, and well Harvard hasn't won a tourney game since the mid 90s. If you looked at HE, I'm pretty sure 1 team wouldn't have nearly have of their tourney wins in the last decade. That, and that alone was my primary point. I'm glad that Union is picking up a lot of the slack right now though!

SlyFoxMan7
03-26-2012, 04:45 PM
What's "almost" mean? Only one more semester of eligibility?


No, he still has a year of eligibility. I just meant that academically he's close to getting his diploma. So he can actually graduate soon and thus may not want to stick around for a full year when he has pro options.

LTsatch
03-26-2012, 07:44 PM
The ECAC/Ivy teams also have a built in disadvantage in the number of games played compared to the non-Ivy's, they don't have the time or games to develop the SOS. I think the fact that Union got out west this year really helped them realize that they are on a level with the top western teams. Yale is heading to Denver and C.C. next season and will play BC away which I am glad to see. Another example of ECAC strength, Yale is a .500 team this year and split with Union beating them in their barn handily this year, they should have beaten BC at home this year as well until they blew the lead, of course being a young team they also lost to the worst ranked team in the nation. I think you will see Union Cornell, Havard Yale and possibly QPac make a good showing next year.

cornellgradyalefan
03-26-2012, 08:44 PM
The other thing to keep in mind when comparing Hockey East vs ECAC, and I make that comparison because they are all eastern schools, is that Hockey East's profile has been elevated, while the overall strength of the league has been diluted, by the ascension of BC to elite status. BC is the most consistently dominant team in the East, and, arguably, the country. They have separated their program from all of the other programs in HE (BU,UNH, Maine) that were on that top tier with BC. The result is that HE is BC and a bunch of pretenders to the throne, whereas the ECAC has rotated teams (Cornell, Clarkson, Princeton, Yale, Union) at the top of the league over the last 5 years. Cornell is certainly the most consistently good team in the ECAC over the past ten or so years, but has never achieved dominance in the ECAC the way BC has in HE. BC's consistent excellence has given HE greater cachet than the performance of the entire league warrants.