Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

[Midfan]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

Agree that this trend exists at Middlebury and many other NESCACs but do not see it as affecting the overall quality of Middlebury's athletic program. Most of Middlebury's other athletic programs continue to perform at a high level. The Middlebury football, for example, with its much greater commitment of admissions slots, continues to perform at a very high level, tying for second place in the league this past fall with a fine 7-2 record.. This year's men's basketball team tied for first place in the NESCAC. Last year's baseball team won its division in the NESCAC. And so on. It is only Middlebury's men's hockey team that has managed to land in last place in the NESCAC so the explanation for the demise of the hockey program likely resides with the hockey program and not with the overall treatment of athletics at Middlebury.

I agree partly. So long as a program remains strong it will attract the best athletes and look after itself. The women's hockey program being a perfect example. As soon as a program falters, however, and needs some support from administration and some effort to re-establish strength and attract athletes, without that support the program will fall just as the men's hockey program has. Without the support, its a matter of time.

[Mucker44]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

Agree that this trend exists at Middlebury and many other NESCACs but do not see it as affecting the overall quality of Middlebury's athletic program. Most of Middlebury's other athletic programs continue to perform at a high level.

Two thoughts: 1. The overall athletic performance at Middlebury has tailed off. If we look back to all the negative reports and publications that emerged around 2005 and highlighted athletics at the NESCACs, you will see a definite decline. Between 1995-2005 Middlebury secured 24 NCAA Championships. In the following decade, 2006-2015, the Panthers only secured 8 NCAA titles. The decline seems to correspond to all the bruhaha surrounding athletics in NESCAC.
2. It also may not be significant to compare men's ice hockey with any other collegiate sport in terms of team performance. Ice hockey draws a percentage of talent from junior leagues which obviously involves players with significantly more experience (playing time) as well as physical maturity (a function of age). No other program has that talent pool, although we are beginning to see signs of a similar dynamics in women's ice hockey. Programs that draw primarily from 1-year prep or PG programs have a built-in skill gap (on average).

[d3follower]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

Two thoughts: 1. The overall athletic performance at Middlebury has tailed off. If we look back to all the negative reports and publications that emerged around 2005 and highlighted athletics at the NESCACs, you will see a definite decline. Between 1995-2005 Middlebury secured 24 NCAA Championships. In the following decade, 2006-2015, the Panthers only secured 8 NCAA titles. The decline seems to correspond to all the bruhaha surrounding athletics in NESCAC.
2. It also may not be significant to compare men's ice hockey with any other collegiate sport in terms of team performance. Ice hockey draws a percentage of talent from junior leagues which obviously involves players with significantly more experience (playing time) as well as physical maturity (a function of age). No other program has that talent pool, although we are beginning to see signs of a similar dynamics in women's ice hockey. Programs that draw primarily from 1-year prep or PG programs have a built-in skill gap (on average).

My sense is that Middlebury is less good in sports like lacrosse and soccer than it was in the heyday period that you cite (1995-2005) but still in contention most years for a high finish in the NESCAC. I haven't researched the numbers but recall Middlebury winning NCAA championships in lacrosses before lowering its profile. (edit: just did some post-post research on lax-3 national championships (2000-03 & 3 runner-ups (1999, 2003, 2005)-nothing after 2005 . . ). It was likely a victim of that report that condemned "helmet" sports in the NESCAC. But still Middlebury's lacrosse program did not become a shell of itself as did the hockey program.

My sense is that the core of the hockey problem is a reluctance to recruit and admit junior hockey products. In trend terms, Bowdoin seems to have headed in the same direction . . You see an occasional player on the Middlebury and Bowdoin rosters who has a strong junior hockey background but mostly you see players who come straight from prep hockey to college, resulting in younger and less experienced and developed players at both schools.. Their teams are younger and less experienced than the teams of league rivals like Trinity, Amherst, Hamilton, and Conn College, which seem to have no issue with having large numbers of junior hockey products on their rosters . . So I am guessing an institutional decision has been made at both schools to limit access to junior hockey products, placing both schools at a competitive disadvantage . .

[Midfan]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

My sense is that Middlebury is less good in sports like lacrosse and soccer than it was in the heyday period that you cite (1995-2005) but still in contention most years for a high finish in the NESCAC. I haven't researched the numbers but recall Middlebury winning NCAA championships in lacrosses before lowering its profile. (edit: just did some post-post research on lax-3 national championships (2000-03 & 3 runner-ups (1999, 2003, 2005)-nothing after 2005 . . ). It was likely a victim of that report that condemned "helmet" sports in the NESCAC. But still Middlebury's lacrosse program did not become a shell of itself as did the hockey program.

My sense is that the core of the hockey problem is a reluctance to recruit and admit junior hockey products. In trend terms, Bowdoin seems to have headed in the same direction . . You see an occasional player on the Middlebury and Bowdoin rosters who has a strong junior hockey background but mostly you see players who come straight from prep hockey to college, resulting in younger and less experienced and developed players at both schools.. Their teams are younger and less experienced than the teams of league rivals like Trinity, Amherst, Hamilton, and Conn College, which seem to have no issue with having large numbers of junior hockey products on their rosters . . So I am guessing an institutional decision has been made at both schools to limit access to junior hockey products, placing both schools at a competitive disadvantage . .

I believe you are correct, however, the change seems more recent. It seems there are currently 5 past juniors on the team, all solid, 1 sophomore, 1 junior, 3 seniors. No new freshman recruits. Whether this is an administration or a coaching decision, who knows?

[Midfan]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

However, for giggles I just reviewed all of the Middlebury rosters from 99/2000 to present and it seems, since then, Midd has had very few X Juniors on the team.

[PrezdeJohnson09]

It wasn’t that long ago, 2014 or 2015? Maybe that Middlebury won the Learfield Sports Director’s Cup, which rewards excellence across the board in all sports.

[Ed Trefzger]

Re: Middlebury slide continues ...

Just reading this thread brought this to mind: Remember about 11 years ago when Middlebury's former president wanted to create a Division IV?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/13/sp...ts/13ncaa.html

[Midfan]

Just reading this thread brought this to mind: Remember about 11 years ago when Middlebury's former president wanted to create a Division IV?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/13/sp...ts/13ncaa.html

Good pick up, and although I disagree with the idea, and think it is sad when a pure academic is negative about sports, likely because they have never been involved in a sport, if they want to split, split. But if they stay don't be committed to mediocrity. It's not fair to the student athletes, the fans, or alumni to watch what is happening.

How on earth can the administration be proud?

[OhioMule]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

Meanwhile, weather permitting, there actually is a NESCAC MIH Final Four scheduled in Hartford this weekend. Here's an interesting fact... Trinity's three league losses were at the hands of the other three teams left in the tournament.

[NU Pastime]

Just reading this thread brought this to mind: Remember about 11 years ago when Middlebury's former president wanted to create a Division IV?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/13/sp...ts/13ncaa.html

After reading the article, I actually didn't find the concept as stupid as I thought I was. There is a clear difference between the Wisconsin state schools that have been piling up national championships in the flagship sports and the traditional, small, liberal arts schools of Division III.

But otherwise, the concept isn't thought through at all (I know this is over 10 years old). I don't really get the point of it either. Playing against like-minded schools is what conferences are for (NESCAC is the besr example of this, Norwich's new football conference is another great example). The chance to win a championship over a Stevens Point is what makes a championship "national".

[joecct]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

McA also wanted the D3 schools to be exclusively D3. 4 out of the 5 D3 playing up to D1 hockey at the time were vehemently opposed.

[Mucker44]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

It wasn’t that long ago, 2014 or 2015? Maybe that Middlebury won the Learfield Sports Director’s Cup, which rewards excellence across the board in all sports.

2011-2012.....done without a single NCAA title for the year. Off year for Williams

[minnesotan in vermont]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

Congratulations to Colby for advancing to the NESCAC championship game!

[OhioMule]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

Congratulations to Colby for advancing to the NESCAC championship game!

I thought last year's Mules would have been the team to do it, but I'll take this. The offense was clicking this afternoon and the goaltending was outstanding. I'm glad the final will be against Trinity. The team is hot right now and up to the task.

[minnesotan in vermont]

Re: Isn't anyone going to start a NESCAC 2017-2018 thread?

I thought last year's Mules would have been the team to do it, but I'll take this. The offense was clicking this afternoon and the goaltending was outstanding. I'm glad the final will be against Trinity. The team is hot right now and up to the task.

They played well yesterday, and Lawrence minded his net flawlessly. I think they stand a good chance. I'm pulling for them.