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  • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
    you must be trying to troll us, from what I have seen of the JWHL there is a big difference between the top and bottom players
    watching some of the D play it is all they can do to skate backward and stay between the puck carrier and goal
    it reminds me of MN HS girls hockey of 20 years ago
    looking at who has played there among current and past players, sure, every year there are a few that go on to success in the NCAA D1 but most go on to play D3 ,Canadian, or nowhere.
    If you listed the college stats from the best JWHL players and compared them to best MN HS players it wouldn't even be close, at least from the college stats, the first three lines and D pairs would be all MN HS players, with JWHL rounded out the 4th line .... maybe
    the fact is the JWHL players stats are inflated due to the large discrepency in skill, just like they were in MN 20 years ago
    the difference is those MN players went on to set NCAA records, win NCAA championships, be named All-American, become Patty K winner & finalists, make the Olympic team on merit, not because their coach was the Olympic coach,.....and coach today's girls who ... guess what/ win championships, make the U18, get D1 scholarships and become the best players in the NCAA.
    Maybe Minny and Wisco should stop wasting their time recruiting JWHL players and stick with Minny HS players.
    Fan of CLARKSON: 2014, 2017 & 2018 NC$$ WOMEN'S DIV 1 HOCKEY NATIONAL CHAMPIONS *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********
    And of 3 Patty Kaz recepients: Jamie Lee Rattray, Loren Gabel and Elizabeth Giguere
    WHOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOO
    If Union Can Do It So Can CCT (One of These Years) *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********

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    • Originally posted by vicb View Post
      Maybe Minny and Wisco should stop wasting their time recruiting JWHL players and stick with Minny HS players.
      Lol, exactly.

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      • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

        Originally posted by vicb View Post
        Maybe Minny and Wisco should stop wasting their time recruiting JWHL players and stick with Minny HS players.
        At least in Minnesota's case, they mostly have stuck with Minny HS players. And having captured 4 of the last 6 NCAA titles, it's obviously served them quite well.
        Clarkson has won the other two NCAA titles in the last 6 years. Just curious, how many JWHL alums do they have on their roster?
        Minnesota Golden Gopher Hockey

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        • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

          Originally posted by D2D View Post
          At least in Minnesota's case, they mostly have stuck with Minny HS players. And having captured 4 of the last 6 NCAA titles, it's obviously served them quite well.
          Clarkson has won the other two NCAA titles in the last 6 years. Just curious, how many JWHL alums do they have on their roster?
          It most certainly has served Minny well.
          As for me I got my JWHL mixed up with the PWHL (too many WHL's)
          Clarkson has One, Savannah Harmon, Boston Shamrocks.
          Next year she will be joined by Kia Castonguay (G) and Michaela Boyle (F) from the Shamrocks.
          Fan of CLARKSON: 2014, 2017 & 2018 NC$$ WOMEN'S DIV 1 HOCKEY NATIONAL CHAMPIONS *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********
          And of 3 Patty Kaz recepients: Jamie Lee Rattray, Loren Gabel and Elizabeth Giguere
          WHOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOO
          If Union Can Do It So Can CCT (One of These Years) *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********

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          • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

            Originally posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
            For what purpose? Be honest with yourself...The so called facts from someone else would only matter if they matched up to your ego driven opinion.
            Here's some facts. The origin of the top 50 D1 NCAA players in the USCHO points/game list:

            - Canadien (and played high school age hockey in Canada) - 24 (48%)
            - US Prep/Club/Hockey Factory (including JWHL) - 15 (30%)
            - Minnesota High School (and I've included 2 Blake players that were recruited to play at that MN HS hockey factory) - 7 (14%)
            - Rest of World - 4 (8%)

            So of the top 50 NCAA point getters (which arguably covers many of the best D1 players and some national team candidates), 14% are products of the MN high school system including 2 that could arguably be in the Prep/Club/Factory category (threw the MN contingent a bone). I recognize that this is far from an authoritative analysis, but I'd guess it may be directionally accurate. One interpretation certainly could be that MN high school hockey is already fading as a path to the National Team as 2/3 of the US developed players are not from this system.

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            • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

              Do we really care where the girls come from, as long as we are growing the girls game?

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              • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                Originally posted by DDad16 View Post
                Do we really care where the girls come from, as long as we are growing the girls game?
                No, and it has nothing to do with my original question which was for an explanation of how youth hockey is managed in Canada where there are so many more players. Apparently my phasing hurt someones feelings and the whole thread went to 4311

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                • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                  Originally posted by HockeyEast33 View Post
                  So of the top 50 NCAA point getters (which arguably covers many of the best D1 players and some national team candidates), 14% are products of the MN high school system including 2 that could arguably be in the Prep/Club/Factory category (threw the MN contingent a bone). I recognize that this is far from an authoritative analysis, but I'd guess it may be directionally accurate. One interpretation certainly could be that MN high school hockey is already fading as a path to the National Team as 2/3 of the US developed players are not from this system.
                  So, Minnesota has less than 20% of the girls registered with USA Hockey nationwide, fewer than 100% of whom play in the high school system, but this system contributes about a third of the best D1 players from the U.S. (accepting your measure for the sake of argument). And you consider this to be an indictment of the Minnesota high school approach?

                  As I've said before, math is harder than people think.

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                  • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                    Originally posted by ne7minder View Post
                    No, and it has nothing to do with my original question which was for an explanation of how youth hockey is managed in Canada where there are so many more players. Apparently my phasing hurt someones feelings and the whole thread went to 4311
                    Got it!

                    Comment


                    • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                      Originally posted by HockeyEast33 View Post
                      Here's some facts. The origin of the top 50 D1 NCAA players in the USCHO points/game list:

                      - Canadien (and played high school age hockey in Canada) - 24 (48%)
                      - US Prep/Club/Hockey Factory (including JWHL) - 15 (30%)
                      - Minnesota High School (and I've included 2 Blake players that were recruited to play at that MN HS hockey factory) - 7 (14%)
                      - Rest of World - 4 (8%)

                      So of the top 50 NCAA point getters (which arguably covers many of the best D1 players and some national team candidates), 14% are products of the MN high school system including 2 that could arguably be in the Prep/Club/Factory category (threw the MN contingent a bone). I recognize that this is far from an authoritative analysis, but I'd guess it may be directionally accurate. One interpretation certainly could be that MN high school hockey is already fading as a path to the National Team as 2/3 of the US developed players are not from this system.
                      You're working hard here, so I'll acknowledge your point. I have made this argument before, in a different context, but I'll throw it out here: the MN model produces large numbers of very good players, but it is not so great at producing elite players. Minnesota produces about 18% of the total rosters in NCAA women's hockey, but as you say, a slightly lower percentage of the top players.

                      The reason seems clear to me: the MN youth programs provide high-quality development opportunities for a large number of players, and many players who would otherwise not continue playing, if the travel and expense of club hockey were factored in, are getting the opportunity to play college hockey. Players such as this are actually critical to the development of the elite players who will go on to play on the national teams, as nobody can get better if they don't have competitive teams to play against.

                      If, as you say, Minnesota moves to the club model for development (and I don't see the evidence for this), it would be a loss for women's hockey, as you would see possibly more elite players coming from Minnesota, but many fewer players in total. That would mean fewer NCAA teams, or degraded quality.

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                      • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                        Originally posted by EastFan1 View Post
                        What am I missing? Based on stats alone, at least two JWHL alumni scored more goals this year than any Minnesotan. The top frosh in NCAA points, by a big margin, was JWHL. In the WCHA (which is filled with Minnesotans), a JWHL player almost won the freshman scoring title, ahead of all Minnesota high school freshman. Your top Gopher recruit next year is JWHL, and she was only 5th in league scoring this year. Seems to me like high end talent for a small league.
                        half your brain apparently ...
                        cherry picking stats from one year means nothing
                        1) the player you are referring to as the best incoming Gopher was not produced by the JWHL, it was merely a one year stop along the way
                        2) you are implying since there are 4 players that scored more points than her, there are 4 players who are even better, no need to argue this point, we can wait and see what happens next year, how they stack up against the rest
                        3) oooh, almost lead WCHA freshman in scoring maybe you should have included that one JWHL alumni almost made first team All-American and almost won an NCAA championship
                        not almost, #1, 1st team, champions, numerous times
                        4) the top scoring freshman you are referring to played in the CHA, LOL The ECAC top freshman this year, where did she come from? The previous year, where did she come from? Most if not everyone here would say freshman of the year in the ECAC is more impressive.
                        maybe you should try again
                        Last edited by pokechecker; 04-11-2017, 08:11 PM. Reason: fishing season never ends in MN

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                        • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                          Originally posted by HockeyEast33 View Post
                          Here's some facts. The origin of the top 50 D1 NCAA players in the USCHO points/game list:

                          - Canadien (and played high school age hockey in Canada) - 24 (48%)
                          - US Prep/Club/Hockey Factory (including JWHL) - 15 (30%)
                          - Minnesota High School (and I've included 2 Blake players that were recruited to play at that MN HS hockey factory) - 7 (14%)
                          - Rest of World - 4 (8%)

                          So of the top 50 NCAA point getters (which arguably covers many of the best D1 players and some national team candidates), 14% are products of the MN high school system including 2 that could arguably be in the Prep/Club/Factory category (threw the MN contingent a bone). I recognize that this is far from an authoritative analysis, but I'd guess it may be directionally accurate. One interpretation certainly could be that MN high school hockey is already fading as a path to the National Team as 2/3 of the US developed players are not from this system.
                          well, you have me convinced, a state that comprises 1% of the US population, and has 1/9th the population of Canada produces *only* 14% (that's 1/7th for the math impaired) of the top players
                          yup, the sky is falling

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                          • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                            Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                            well, you have me convinced, a state that comprises 1% of the US population, and has 1/9th the population of Canada produces *only* 14% (that's 1/7th for the math impaired) of the top players
                            From the separate "College Hockey & Scholarship Opportunities" thread I posted earlier in the day...
                            "By a wide margin Minnesota was the home state listed by the most players competing on men's and women's NCAA I hockey teams during the 2016-17 season - fair to say the US hotbed for producing college players. Louisiana topped our list of NCAA I basketball hotbeds, but is clearly not a big state for producing college hockey players."

                            All the statistics in that piece are about participation levels and hockey scholarship numbers - not which players are considered the most elite of the elite, or where the national team members hail from. Realistically, about 95% of the U.S. women playing D1 hockey won't go on to wear the Red, White and Blue in the World Championships or the Olympics. For the vast majority, earning that athletic scholarship - or getting accepted to a prestigious college that recruited them to play hockey - is a really big deal. And for us observers and fans of the game, it's another way to look at the "big picture" instead of just focusing on which players had the best stats in high school or juniors.
                            Minnesota Golden Gopher Hockey

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                            • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                              Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                              the top scoring freshman you are referring to played in the CHA, LOL
                              maybe you should try again
                              She averaged 1.5 goals per WCHA game last year.

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                              • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                                and zero against top ten teams

                                maybe you should pick your cherries from a different tree

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