USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

[speed_skater]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

To respond to the 2 prior posts -

There was a fire alarm and full facility evacuation on Sunday AM. Everything was quite orderly, but not sure what would have happened if there were smoke or other indications of a real fire. Just about everyone evacuated out the front doors. The emergency exits did open and some of the player went out those doors, but would have been pretty chaotic if there were truly an emergency.


As for the venue - I agree - totally typical for this place. Such a great venue, but alway doing "just enough". There were games scheduled for 8AM on Sunday on sheets of ice booked until after 8AM; meanwhile other sheets of ice were open and available and not scheduled to be used until 8:10 or after. Parking was also a nightmare most of the time. How hard would it have been to run a shuttle from one of the numerous nearby office parks? Was crazy seeing the fire trucks arriving and cars all over the place.......

All in all a good event though.

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Congrats to your program in building and making the transition to Tier 1. We all know how much work that it takes from volunteers and it does not happen without some deticated people leading things. Several of your girls will be playing D1 this next year, and that is the greatest testiment to your program and the coaching the girls have received.

Congrats to the Alliance and other winners.

I would like to gather thoughts/opinions on how much difference people believe there is between Tier I and II level girls team?

Secondly, some teams that go to the National Championships are teams made up of all star groups for lack of a better description. Where a team is selected from several groups of teams. This team qualifies but the players actually play in different associations and teams for their regular (?). This meets all the rules so nothing illegal there, but there are some teams that have only been on team and no other. Is this truly fair?

[DC78-82]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Congrats to the Alliance and other winners.

I would like to gather thoughts/opinions on how much difference people believe there is between Tier I and II level girls team?

Secondly, some teams that go to the National Championships are teams made up of all star groups for lack of a better description. Where a team is selected from several groups of teams. This team qualifies but the players actually play in different associations and teams for their regular (?). This meets all the rules so nothing illegal there, but there are some teams that have only been on team and no other. Is this truly fair?

At least with regard to the teams at the Senior level, we have to be on the roster of the National bound team by a specific date, and that team must have played in 15 USA Hockey approved games by a specific date, while each player has to have 10 games with that team (the 10/15 rule). You can't be rostered on 2 different National bound teams in a season.

Little League Baseball is very different, in that for their World Series they all assemble an All Star squad, but my understanding is that the 10/15 rule and dual roster prohibition are strictly enforced for USA Hockey Championships. I'll leave it to someone to find the specific rules on the book

[NoGo]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Girls have to be on the roster (1T) by midnight of Dec 31 for the season they are playing. The team must play 14 games (20 for youth teams) and each player must have played in 10 of those games. This is verified by the affiliate registrar, and the district registrar for district play. They are verified again for National play.

Managers of the teams must have birth certificates, USA Hockey registration, signed forms, a matrix of game (showing dates & who played), score sheets etc. It is truly a pain, but must be done.

[DC78-82]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Girls have to be on the roster (1T) by midnight of Dec 31 for the season they are playing. The team must play 14 games (20 for youth teams) and each player must have played in 10 of those games. This is verified by the affiliate registrar, and the district registrar for district play. They are verified again for National play.

Managers of the teams must have birth certificates, USA Hockey registration, signed forms, a matrix of game (showing dates & who played), score sheets etc. It is truly a pain, but must be done.

True - there was a team that was planning to play in our regionals whose books didn't pass, thus they were disqualified. Whether or not you have fullfilled the game requirements, if you don't have them documented, you're ineligible.

[Hockeydad4two]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Our books had to be turned into the state registrar before playing in the state tournament so it could be verified. If you made it to Regionals, you had to turn that same book in with the certification from the state in order to play. If you then made nationals, you had to turn same book into a credentials meeting at Nationals. I did see people at Regionals and Nationals reviewing the books so they did take it seriously.

It was a pain to pull together the first time. You definitely needed a 3" binder to hold everything.

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Was at Marlborough this weekend, primarily to watch U19 games. However, I heard that in reviewing the team books at the Nationals, it was discovered that one of the U16 teams had actually used an illegal player (overage) in the district qualifying tournament - not sure if the player falsified a document or if it was a team decision (hard to imagine it was an innocent mistake - we all know how old we are ). In any case, there was some discussion amongst the USA Hockey officials about whether the team should be disqualified, but in the end the player was removed from play at the Nationals and the team allowed to play on. So USA Hockey takes the qualifying documents pretty seriously (as you would hope).

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Congrats to the Alliance and other winners.

I would like to gather thoughts/opinions on how much difference people believe there is between Tier I and II level girls team?

Secondly, some teams that go to the National Championships are teams made up of all star groups for lack of a better description. Where a team is selected from several groups of teams. This team qualifies but the players actually play in different associations and teams for their regular (?). This meets all the rules so nothing illegal there, but there are some teams that have only been on team and no other. Is this truly fair?

I'll take a shot at the first question. Based on watching many girls youth hockey games over the years, I would say that generally speaking the top 4 or so Tier 2 teams are probably comparable to the bottom 4 teams at the Tier 1 level and would be competitive against them. Couple of examples to support:
- Three years ago at the first Tier 2 Nationals, MA district sent the runner up (or highest non-Tier 1 qualifier) at the state tournament to the Tier 2 Nationals. The reality is that these were effectively middle of the pack Tier 1 teams (this issue was cleared up after the first Tier 2 Nationals). These teams cleaned up at the Tier 2 Nationals, winning every age group pretty handily.
- This year at the U16 team level, the first Assabet Valley U16 team won the Tier 1 Nationals. The second Assabet Valley U16 team played at the Tier 1 Level at all tournaments they played in and generally were very successful (they beat a couple of the teams at this year's U16 Tier 1 nationals during the season and played several others very close). The third Assabet Valley U16 team is the one that won the MA district Tier 2 U16 tournament and played in TX. They were a middle of the pack team there. So the Tier 2 winner was likely comparable to the second Assabet Valley team that would have been a competitive bottom 4 team at the Tier 1 Nationals.

[BlackIce22]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I'll add to HockeyEast's observations about diff between Tier 1 & 2... I've attended both Tiers for 19's. For this year, just take a look at the scores of the games from quarterfinals and on, in both 19's tournaments this year. There's a wide spread in goals at the Tier 2 level but at Tier 1 all the playoff games were incredibly tight, including 3 OTs. At Marlborough I think any of the 8 teams that broke through could have taken it all if the pucks bounced the right way for them. Tier 2 19's did not seem to have that depth. I hope as the sport grows, that will diminish.

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I'll add to HockeyEast's observations about diff between Tier 1 & 2... I've attended both Tiers for 19's. For this year, just take a look at the scores of the games from quarterfinals and on, in both 19's tournaments this year. There's a wide spread in goals at the Tier 2 level but at Tier 1 all the playoff games were incredibly tight, including 3 OTs. At Marlborough I think any of the 8 teams that broke through could have taken it all if the pucks bounced the right way for them. Tier 2 19's did not seem to have that depth. I hope as the sport grows, that will diminish.

I agree there is a larger disparity in scores. ie Team Wyoming Tier II but the choice for a team to go National or not at Tier II is simply a choice once they qualify. Our location only has Tier II available, on occasion the team is able to schedule a Tier I team and the team has had mixed results, wins, losses and ties. The difference is not as high as one may think. It is also not unusual to have for example a 13yr on a 19U because they have no other place to play.

The tournament really only ends up showing the top teams at the end.

As to my 2nd question, I have spoken with parents on a team, Tier II in the tournament that stated the two goalies and others on the team play on different teams during their season. Does that mean an early season of some type, I am not sure, but it is why I mention the quasi all star teams some seem to be made of. This may be much less or not at all an issue at Tier I as typically there is a higher $$$ commitment so I would think the team would stick together.

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I agree there is a larger disparity in scores. ie Team Wyoming Tier II but the choice for a team to go National or not at Tier II is simply a choice once they qualify. Our location only has Tier II available, on occasion the team is able to schedule a Tier I team and the team has had mixed results, wins, losses and ties. The difference is not as high as one may think. It is also not unusual to have for example a 13yr on a 19U because they have no other place to play.

The tournament really only ends up showing the top teams at the end.

As to my 2nd question, I have spoken with parents on a team, Tier II in the tournament that stated the two goalies and others on the team play on different teams during their season. Does that mean an early season of some type, I am not sure, but it is why I mention the quasi all star teams some seem to be made of. This may be much less or not at all an issue at Tier I as typically there is a higher $$$ commitment so I would think the team would stick together.

Addressing the 2nd question. USA Hockey has very specific guidelines about the team make ups for Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams. Tier 1 U16 and U19 teams can legally recruit from around the country and have an unlimited number of players from out of district (U12 and U14 teams are limited in out of district players to 4 but can recruit nationally). In fact, a team can have no players from its home district if that works for them - the home district is really only a function of where they are registered and play. One U14 player a few years ago from MA played the season for the Anaheim Lady Ducks (that is an extreme case) - commuting all season. So these teams often only play 20-30 games together during the season with players playing on other teams as well. As long as the minimum game requirements mentioned elsewhere in this thread are adhered to, anything goes. For example, at the U16 and U19 levels in MA and NE districts almost all the girls play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring. So these club teams (Assabet, Wizards, Spitfires, Polar Bears, Stars, Northern Lights, etc.) are really all-star teams that have the best prep/high school players on them.

Tier 2 teams have tight out-of-district player restrictions (no more than 4 out of district players) and are not allowed to openly recruit out of district players. So by definition and intent these teams tend to be more localized in their makeup. Despite this, in MA and NE districts these teams are largely still made up of players that play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring - just like the Tier 1's. the only difference is that the Tier 2 girls tend to be either less skilled and couldn't make one of the Tier 1 teams or aren't as dedicated to the sport and willing to put in the kind of commitment that Tier 1 requires. In any case, at both Tiers in NE and MA the players play on multiple teams and the club teams that go to Nationals tend to be all-star like in their make-up.

[pakidnyc]

Addressing the 2nd question. USA Hockey has very specific guidelines about the team make ups for Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams. Tier 1 U16 and U19 teams can legally recruit from around the country and have an unlimited number of players from out of district (U12 and U14 teams are limited in out of district players to 4 but can recruit nationally). In fact, a team can have no players from its home district if that works for them - the home district is really only a function of where they are registered and play. One U14 player a few years ago from MA played the season for the Anaheim Lady Ducks (that is an extreme case) - commuting all season. So these teams often only play 20-30 games together during the season with players playing on other teams as well. As long as the minimum game requirements mentioned elsewhere in this thread are adhered to, anything goes. For example, at the U16 and U19 levels in MA and NE districts almost all the girls play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring. So these club teams (Assabet, Wizards, Spitfires, Polar Bears, Stars, Northern Lights, etc.) are really all-star teams that have the best prep/high school players on them.

Tier 2 teams have tight out-of-district player restrictions (no more than 4 out of district players) and are not allowed to openly recruit out of district players. So by definition and intent these teams tend to be more localized in their makeup. Despite this, in MA and NE districts these teams are largely still made up of players that play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring - just like the Tier 1's. the only difference is that the Tier 2 girls tend to be either less skilled and couldn't make one of the Tier 1 teams or aren't as dedicated to the sport and willing to put in the kind of commitment that Tier 1 requires. In any case, at both Tiers in NE and MA the players play on multiple teams and the club teams that go to Nationals tend to be all-star like in their make-up.

Actually the 1st part about out of district players is only partially correct. Right now USAH doesn't dictate the # of out of district players (although there's a proposal on the table for the June annual meeting that would limit it to 4 on every team, period, tier 1, tier 2, all teams). The limitations are currently dictated by each district. Michigan, for example, only allows two out-of-state (their district is their state) players on any team, even u16 and u19 Tier 1.

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Tier 2 teams have tight out-of-district player restrictions (no more than 4 out of district players) and are not allowed to openly recruit out of district players. So by definition and intent these teams tend to be more localized in their makeup. Despite this, in MA and NE districts these teams are largely still made up of players that play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring - just like the Tier 1's. the only difference is that the Tier 2 girls tend to be either less skilled and couldn't make one of the Tier 1 teams or aren't as dedicated to the sport and willing to put in the kind of commitment that Tier 1 requires. In any case, at both Tiers in NE and MA the players play on multiple teams and the club teams that go to Nationals tend to be all-star like in their make-up.

AH ok so it depends on what seasons are available to them ie their high school teams, so in a way it is a quasi all star team from a large area.

Though I will argue your point of Tier 1 players being more skilled then Tier 2's as this is a function of time spent on the ice. Being on Tier 2 also has to deal with proximity to a Tier 1 program, possibly money and can be commitment if there is an available Tier 1 team of course leaving politics to the side. I also believe though do not have the data to back it up that typically Tier 1 teams are made up of girls closer in age range then Tier 2 teams. Hence they would have more time on the ice making them more skilled.

I'm a strong believer in the 10K hr rule.

[pakidnyc]

AH ok so it depends on what seasons are available to them ie their high school teams, so in a way it is a quasi all star team from a large area.

Though I will argue your point of Tier 1 players being more skilled then Tier 2's as this is a function of time spent on the ice. Being on Tier 2 also has to deal with proximity to a Tier 1 program, possibly money and can be commitment if there is an available Tier 1 team of course leaving politics to the side. I also believe though do not have the data to back it up that typically Tier 1 teams are made up of girls closer in age range then Tier 2 teams. Hence they would have more time on the ice making them more skilled.

I'm a strong believer in the 10K hr rule.

The major difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is speed. There are skilled players at tier 2 but if you watch a tier 2 game, it is much much slower than tier 1. That's not to say that you can't have tier 1 level girls on tier 2 teams but as a whole the speed of tier 1 is much faster. There are very few tier 2 girls that can jump to NCAA d1 due to the lack of playing at that speed.

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

The major difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is speed. There are skilled players at tier 2 but if you watch a tier 2 game, it is much much slower than tier 1. That's not to say that you can't have tier 1 level girls on tier 2 teams but as a whole the speed of tier 1 is much faster. There are very few tier 2 girls that can jump to NCAA d1 due to the lack of playing at that speed.

Speed is a skill nothing more. Skill comes from ice time and purposeful practice. Jumping to D1 has more to do with recruiting practices and money available.