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  • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Let me tell you a story. Choose to believe it or not. (Phil Harmeson told it to me over coffee one day.)

    A while back when Phil Harmeson was acting AD and the decision to move to DI was made, Phil called in all the coaches from the 21 sports. (Harmeson was then a professor in the business school, a lawyer, and then president Kupchella's chief of staff. The man knew budgets and budgeting across the campus.)

    He was frank with them: He told them that budgets at UND would not sustain 21 sports and that they should look around the room because in about five years about five sports would be gone to the budget ax. He said, told them, a university of UND's size can not support 21 DI sports.

    That Harmeson-led meeting was roughly ten years ago.

    UND has gotten by this long because of the Bakken (oil) boom in the state and the Legislature was feeling flush with cash. State monies to UND ramped way up.

    Money from the State is now returning to the mean trendline from pre-Bakken.

    Harmeson's realities are here.


    Anyone who's paid attention to UND Athletics for the last 20 years, not just on the field, but the budgets, saw this coming and knew it had to happen.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017, 01:22 PM.
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    • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

      Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
      And, UND was out of balance regarding Title IX (unfair toward the men) both before and after dropping baseball..
      I am extremely skeptical that this was the case. There is much, much more to determining Title IX compliance than just the relative number of athletic scholarships for men and women. It's very difficult for a school that runs a Division 1 football program to be out of compliance with Title IX to the detriment of the male athletes.

      It is also important to remember that, from a legal perspective, ticket sales and overall revenues for a sport entirely irrelevant to Title IX compliance. The NCAA and individual schools have repeatedly argued in federal courts that revenue generation is not a significant consideration in how they run their athletic departments. As ridiculous as that argument is on its face, multiple federal judges have accepted it. A consequence of that is that schools now cannot argue that the revenue generated by a men's sport justifies its survival.

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      • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

        Originally posted by sean pickett View Post
        ... What about cutting women's volleyball?
        Women's volleyball - $1,058,483 expenses, $892,516 loss
        WIH:
        Expense: $2.132M
        Net Loss: $1.92M
        Participants: 25

        WVB:
        Expense: $1.058M
        Net Loss: $0.893M
        Participants: 15

        Loss per WIH player: $76,800.
        Loss per WVB player: $59,500.

        Volleyball loses less money per player and less overall.
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        • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

          Originally posted by Eeyore View Post
          I am extremely skeptical that this was the case. There is much, much more to determining Title IX compliance than just the relative number of athletic scholarships for men and women. It's very difficult for a school that runs a Division 1 football program to be out of compliance with Title IX to the detriment of the male athletes.

          It is also important to remember that, from a legal perspective, ticket sales and overall revenues for a sport entirely irrelevant to Title IX compliance. The NCAA and individual schools have repeatedly argued in federal courts that revenue generation is not a significant consideration in how they run their athletic departments. As ridiculous as that argument is on its face, multiple federal judges have accepted it. A consequence of that is that schools now cannot argue that the revenue generated by a men's sport justifies its survival.
          Using the NCAA FY14, FY15, and FY16 data:

          UND has never been below 53.8% male in general student body.

          UND male athletes have never received above 50.2% of equivalencies (scholarships) nor have male athletes received above 50.9% of overall equivalency dollars nor have ever more than 51.8% of male athletes received an equivalency.

          Additionally, males have never been above 53% of the total athlete population (duplicated or unduplicated athlete counting).

          UND male athletes have been shorted by slots, scholarships, and dollars.


          Title IX is not about women; Title IX is about gender equity, and male is a gender too.
          Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017, 12:20 PM.
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          • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

            Why do you folks think Baker Donelson was hired by UND during this process?

            A top Title IX firm in the US was not retained visit North Dakota in March to comment on the weather.

            When I heard they'd been retained, I knew something big was going to churn.


            Others? They whistled past the graveyard.
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            • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

              Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
              UM, UMD, or UW donating those to UND. Not happenin'.
              NSS...My sarcastic question was as genuine as your offer.
              At the outset, we could hang with the dude...

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              • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                Originally posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
                NSS...My sarcastic question was as genuine as your offer.
                But my offer was real. Of course, as with any offer or contract, it was written in my favor to make the point:

                UND WIH has never won any conference or national championship.
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                • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                  In the Player's Tribune article Amy Menke says:

                  ... our team had been making small budget adjustments all season. Cheaper travel, less meals, ...
                  So, you knew something was up because you'd been making adjustments.
                  No, wait, you were completely surprised, blindsided, about budget issues.

                  So. Which is it.


                  PS - It's "fewer meals", not "less meals".
                  The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

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                  • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                    Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                    Using the NCAA FY14, FY15, and FY16 data:

                    UND has never been below 53.8% male in general student body.

                    UND male athletes have never received above 50.2% of equivalencies (scholarships) nor have male athletes received above 50.9% of overall equivalency dollars nor have ever more than 51.8% of male athletes received an equivalency.

                    Additionally, males have never been above 53% of the total athlete population (duplicated or unduplicated athlete counting).

                    UND male athletes have been shorted by slots, scholarships, and dollars.


                    Title IX is not about women; Title IX is about gender equity, and male is a gender too.
                    Clearly, you know absolutely nothing about how Title IX is actually applied. Go away, and come back once you've done some homework.

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                    • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                      Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                      But my offer was real. Of course, as with any offer or contract, it was written in my favor to make the point:

                      UND WIH has never won any conference or national championship.
                      I am asking this question in all seriousness, lets say the UND Whockey had the Clarkson Whockey resume: 2 National Championships, 3 Frozen 4's, 6 NC$$ Tourney appearances, 1 League Post Season Championship, 3 League Regular Season Championships however was losing (per UND stats) $1.9 Million/yr. Do you think or should all these championships have caused the program to be spared from the AX???
                      Last edited by vicb; 04-22-2017, 10:25 AM.
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                      And of 3 Patty Kaz recepients: Jamie Lee Rattray, Loren Gabel and Elizabeth Giguere
                      WHOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOO
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                      • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                        Originally posted by Eeyore View Post
                        Clearly, you know absolutely nothing about how Title IX is actually applied. Go away, and come back once you've done some homework.
                        I know that Baker Donelson signed off on all of UND's moves before they did them.

                        Do you know more about Title IX than Baker Donelson?

                        And I also know that if the number I quoted are misaligned that's what Title IX lawyers call "low hanging fruit".
                        Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-22-2017, 10:38 AM.
                        The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

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                        • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                          Originally posted by vicb View Post
                          I am asking this question in all seriousness, lets say the UND Whockey had the Clarkson Whockey resume: 2 National Championships, 3 Frozen 4's, 6 NC$$ Tourney appearances, 1 League Post Season Championship, 3 League Regular Season Championships however was losing (per UND stats) $1.9 Million/yr. Do you think or should all these championships have caused the program to be spared from the AX???
                          I believe that level of performance would've positively impacted UND WIH's balance sheet and how they measured in comparisons would've looked far better.
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                          • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                            US OCR is going to take a look.

                            http://www.grandforksherald.com/spor...-ix-compliance


                            Baker Donelson's going to earn their fees.
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                            • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                              Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                              I know that Baker Donelson signed off on all of UND's moves before they did them.

                              Do you know more about Title IX than Baker Donelson?

                              And I also know that if the number I quoted are misaligned that's what Title IX lawyers call "low hanging fruit".
                              Again, you don't know the subject at all. Aside from the fact that Title IX compliance depends upon many more factors than just raw scholarship numbers, the disparity you mention is well within the range of what is considered to be in compliance.

                              You're also moving the goalposts. Your original claim was that UND is not in compliance because it is shortchanging male athletes. Weasely and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.

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                              • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                                Originally posted by Eeyore View Post
                                Again, you don't know the subject at all. Aside from the fact that Title IX compliance depends upon many more factors than just raw scholarship numbers, the disparity you mention is well within the range of what is considered to be in compliance.

                                You're also moving the goalposts. Your original claim was that UND is not in compliance because it is shortchanging male athletes. Weasely and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.
                                The minute you resort to feeble attempts at condescension you've lost.

                                But, yes, Title IX is far more than scholarship numbers. That's why one hires BD to review everything before it's rolled out. BD makes sure what you're doing now is aligned, because you know the challenge will come.

                                And are you sure those numbers would be considered aligned given other factors, say, like in FY17 UND no longer sponsors baseball. UND had to do something after eliminating baseball. Participation numbers are misaligned.

                                And you don't know what I know.
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