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  • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

    Originally posted by amherstblackbear View Post
    A much easier way to grow the sport would be simply to get prices right.
    You are right, of course, but since there is NO WAY that ticket prices are going to be lowered by the NC$$, some of us are trying to suggest SOME alternative that would allow for more people to go. Since it's either lower prices or reduce travel, the travel option has been brought up. Obviously it would be better if neither of these alternatives had to be implemented. But I'll bring up the BU example again (I'm sure there are many others). BU was a 9 seed and had to go to Minnesota. So instead of many more fans in either Worcester or Bridgeport, the NCAA thought it was a smarter idea to put them somewhere where probably less than 100 fans would go. This has NOTHING to do with ticket prices - it has to do with proximity and ease of getting to the game. It's not like they were a 16 seed. You could have kept each team in its own region and it wouldn't have made a huge difference. You could say the same for half a dozen other teams. This is NOT basketball. There aren't 64 teams where you HAVE to make them travel to maintain the brackets. And the basketball schools have much larger fan bases and clearly there is more money is what is a much more popular sport.

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    • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

      Originally posted by amherstblackbear View Post
      So doesn't this leave us back where we were 10 years ago? Campus regionals in the West and neutral regionals in the East?
      But what's wrong with that? Many of the campus sites in the West have much larger capacities than the campus sites in the East, making them comparable to the midlevel neutral sites anyway. Newer doesn't always mean better. I thought it was MUCH better when we had the 12 team tournament, but I will concede we don't want to go back to that. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. You don't have to change everything; implement the things that work well and change the things that don't.

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      • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

        Originally posted by IronRangeHockey View Post
        Thanks, a bit surprised. Maybe they all filed down closer to the ice, the lower bowl looked alot better than yesterday and the numbers are pretty close right?
        I suspect that the issue with yesterday was the single ticket. Fans who didn't want to spend 7 hours in the arena either skipped part of the early game or the late game.

        For both days they either sold out or came close to selling out the tickets that were actually available to be sold. That might have been bad planning by the X given the teams that did make the finals, but I wouldn't be surprised that the NCAA wouldn't let them change the plans and open up the upper deck seats.

        The advantage of not opening up the 200s is that they don't have to clean or staff the whole concourse but it also cuts ~8,500 off the possible attendance (and my favorite seats in the whole arena: the upper deck ends). They did the same thing back in 2010 for the regional then also, but attendance was only about 7,500 with UW, UVM, NMU and SCSU.

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        • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

          Originally posted by Almington View Post
          I suspect that the issue with yesterday was the single ticket. Fans who didn't want to spend 7 hours in the arena either skipped part of the early game or the late game.

          For both days they either sold out or came close to selling out the tickets that were actually available to be sold. That might have been bad planning by the X given the teams that did make the finals, but I wouldn't be surprised that the NCAA wouldn't let them change the plans and open up the upper deck seats.

          The advantage of not opening up the 200s is that they don't have to clean or staff the whole concourse but it also cuts ~8,500 off the possible attendance (and my favorite seats in the whole arena: the upper deck ends). They did the same thing back in 2010 for the regional then also, but attendance was only about 7,500 with UW, UVM, NMU and SCSU.
          This.

          Also, if there were separate tickets, I'd have most likely gone, and I was in St Paul a couple blocks away. I chose to take the $50 or whatever it was and spend it at the local watering hole with friends and watch the game on tv. I didn't really want to watch UND/WMU.

          1. Too nice a weekend to spend 7 hours indoors.
          2. Two teams I either don't care about or I hate.
          3. No re-entry, really (yeah, you can cheat, but you are missing part of the game then, most likely)
          4. Same cost no matter where you sit

          In other words, I'm a potential customer that the NC$$ lost due to the regional ticket practices. That's money lost.
          Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
          Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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          • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

            Originally posted by chickod View Post
            You are right, of course, but since there is NO WAY that ticket prices are going to be lowered by the NC$$,
            The NCAA does not set prices. The arena submits a bid and if they host they set prices where they think they will make money. It can be argued that the NCAA should accept less money or that the arenas should reduce their bids, but good luck with that happening. The NCAA gets the same amount whether an arena sells out and a venue makes a killing or the arena is empty and the arena takes a bath. One would think that if the venues weren't making money, they would bid less. A cynic might assume that they are bidding less but leaving ticket prices high anyway...

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            • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

              In that case, the venues need to offer a couple hundred bucks to an econ grad student at a nearby university, in return for a couple hours of work.

              Once they "win" their bid, venue costs are, for the most part, set. At that point, they might as well maximize revenue. Maybe they do maximize revenue with half-full buildings and high prices. I doubt it, though. Concessions add up. Especially on day 1, when you've got a captive audience for hours.
              1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1995 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2012(!)

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              • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                The issue with going 'closest to home, at all costs' is the fact that you can't appease everybody. At all. It would take an extremely rare scenario where you have 2 eastern teams and 2 western teams in each band. Hell, this year alone, the 2 seeds were Miami, Ferris, Duluth and Minnesota. 2 of those are guaranteed flights, nothing you can do about it.

                So you say 'forget seeding, just lump 16 teams together and throw them in the closest regional'? Well, let's take a look at how that would be, shall we?

                1. Boston College
                2. Michigan
                3. Union
                4. North Dakota
                5. Miami
                6. Ferris State
                7. Minnesota-Duluth
                8. Minnesota
                9t. Boston University
                9t. Maine
                11. Denver
                12t. UMass-Lowell
                12t. Cornell
                14t. Western Michigan
                15t. Michigan State
                16. Air Force -- AHA Champ

                Worcester: (29)
                1. BC
                5. Miami
                10. Maine
                13. Cornell

                Bridgeport: (35)
                3. Union
                9. BU
                11. Denver
                12. UML

                Green Bay: (37)
                2. Michigan
                6. Ferris St
                14. Western Michigan
                15. Michigan St

                St. Paul: (35)
                4. NoDak
                7. Minnesota-Duluth
                8. Minnesota
                16. Air Force

                Overall, it ends up being pretty even regionals, based on overall seeding. However, why don't we just call it glorified conference tournaments part deuce, especially out west. As you can see, we still have virtually 2 regionals from the same conference. You might be able to tinker with the regionals a bit to minimize the conference clusters, but it will still be a lot of familiarity. The thing you have to weigh, is do you want attendance, or seeing teams you don't normally see? One of my favorite parts of the regionals, is you see matchups that you don't typically see in the regular season. You see new teams, different styles of play.

                You realistically can't have it both ways 95% of the time.
                Last edited by hockeyplayer1015; 03-25-2012, 09:23 PM.

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                • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                  Updated attendance numbers:

                  Green Bay
                  3465 / 8709 40%
                  3108 / 8709 36%
                  6573 / 17418 38%

                  Bridgeport
                  5090 / 8412 61%
                  5328 / 8412 63%
                  10418 / 16824 62%

                  St Paul
                  9386 / 18064 52%
                  10794 / 18064 60%
                  20180 / 36128 56%

                  Worcester
                  5925 / 12239 48%
                  4470 / 12239 37%
                  10395 / 24478 42%

                  47566 / 94848 50%

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                  • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                    Let's say that the first round was played at the home arenas of the high seeds.

                    Then, let's say that the prices were halved, or at least set reasonably, since people weren't paying to see two games.

                    Would 10,000 Minnesota fans pay to see their team play a win-or-die playoff game in Mariucci? Would 12,000 North Dakota fans pay $25 to see their team play Western in a win-or-die game? (Or would UND face a lot of new pressure if their team lost a home playoff game because they refused to change the nickname?) Both those home games match the entire weekend attendance with one game left to play.

                    It is virtually certain that Yost Ice Arena would have matched the entire attendance of the Green Bay regional in one home game against Cornell. Whatever Ferris drew for its home game (two home games if you count the regional final) would be gravy.

                    But let's forget about that for a second. Let's just look at one moment of a fantastic weekend of hockey:

                    Ferris State's second goal, scored on a 2-on-1 immediately subsequent to their killing of a 5-minute major penalty that could easily have ended their season. Easily the most important goal in Ferris State hockey history, right? It was witnessed by 3,000 people, most of whom don't care about Ferris at all.

                    If they played that game at home (and this is a tiny, three-sided home arena that people would hold up as an object lesson why teams shouldn't host in the NCAA tournament) as they should have played it, the roof would have blown off the building. 2500 Ferris fans, many of them long-suffering and loyal, would have gotten to see their team reach the mountain-top.

                    If, hypothetically, they had played Michigan on the road (Michigan in this home games scenario hypothetically beating Cornell, for sake of argument) fewer Ferris fans are there--but there is the extra thrill of scoring a killer goal and silencing a hostile building, which many athletes agree is one of the great thrills in all of sports.

                    Instead, the celebrating Ferris players got to rejoice in front of 5,000 empty seats.

                    Playing the first two rounds at the home sites of the higher seeds will allow more fans to see the most important games of the season. It will be more fair. It will make more money. It will be closer to drive to.

                    But, mostly, it will just plain be a lot more enjoyable for every party involved. Unquestionably.
                    Jesus Saves

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                    • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                      Originally posted by Caustic Undertow View Post
                      Let's say that the first round was played at the home arenas of the high seeds.

                      Then, let's say that the prices were halved, or at least set reasonably, since people weren't paying to see two games.

                      Would 10,000 Minnesota fans pay to see their team play a win-or-die playoff game in Mariucci? Would 12,000 North Dakota fans pay $25 to see their team play Western in a win-or-die game? (Or would UND face a lot of new pressure if their team lost a home playoff game because they refused to change the nickname?) Both those home games match the entire weekend attendance with one game left to play.

                      It is virtually certain that Yost Ice Arena would have matched the entire attendance of the Green Bay regional in one home game against Cornell. Whatever Ferris drew for its home game (two home games if you count the regional final) would be gravy.

                      But let's forget about that for a second. Let's just look at one moment of a fantastic weekend of hockey:

                      Ferris State's second goal, scored on a 2-on-1 immediately subsequent to their killing of a 5-minute major penalty that could easily have ended their season. Easily the most important goal in Ferris State hockey history, right? It was witnessed by 3,000 people, most of whom don't care about Ferris at all.

                      If they played that game at home (and this is a tiny, three-sided home arena that people would hold up as an object lesson why teams shouldn't host in the NCAA tournament) as they should have played it, the roof would have blown off the building. 2500 Ferris fans, many of them long-suffering and loyal, would have gotten to see their team reach the mountain-top.

                      If, hypothetically, they had played Michigan on the road (Michigan in this home games scenario hypothetically beating Cornell, for sake of argument) fewer Ferris fans are there--but there is the extra thrill of scoring a killer goal and silencing a hostile building, which many athletes agree is one of the great thrills in all of sports.

                      Instead, the celebrating Ferris players got to rejoice in front of 5,000 empty seats.

                      Playing the first two rounds at the home sites of the higher seeds will allow more fans to see the most important games of the season. It will be more fair. It will make more money. It will be closer to drive to.

                      But, mostly, it will just plain be a lot more enjoyable for every party involved. Unquestionably.
                      Except that all of the regional sites were single tickets for both of the semi finals, your examples are breaking the games into two separate tickets, of course you can easily match that attendance.

                      Plus, the X didn't open the 2nd deck, which means that the games were sold out, or close to sold out, with only ~10,000 tickets available to the general public (the other tickets were the boxes which the owners had to buy, and the allotment for the players friends & families). I'm sure that if they had they would have been able to sell many more tickets to the championship game.

                      Home ice to the higher seed is great, but it isn't feasible to have EVERY school hold its arena open for two weekends every year for games that most likely won't be played.

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                      • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                        How would the NCAA tournament have looked this year if the games were played at home arenas instead of regionals? Let's compare. Assumptions used here: First round on the first weekend (just past). Second round next weekend (March 30 and/or 31). Prices are assumed to be reasonable, instead of outrageous like they were in St. Paul; not illogical since if you divide the price in half for a single day at St. Paul, as you are dividing the games in half, you arrive at a reasonable price.

                        All attendance figures are educated guesses.

                        Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                        Updated attendance numbers:

                        Green Bay
                        3465 / 8709 40%
                        3108 / 8709 36%
                        6573 / 17418 38%
                        Day 1:
                        Cornell at Michigan: 6500
                        Denver at Ferris State: 2500

                        Day 2: Cornell at Ferris State: 2500

                        Total: 11,500

                        Ferris hosts twice at its tin can of a rink (mind you, the place is really hostile when the fans are into things) and still the Resch is destroyed here.

                        Bridgeport
                        5090 / 8412 61%
                        5328 / 8412 63%
                        10418 / 16824 62%
                        Day 1:

                        MSU at Union: 2500
                        Lowell at Miami: 3600

                        Day 2:
                        Miami at Union: 2500

                        Total: 8600

                        There were a lot of empty seats at this regional, but given the fanbases that were close and the distance for the others it wasn't bad. Keep in mind that Union and Miami, the two hypothetical hosts, are two of those "low-capacity" worst-case-scenarios that everyone thinks completely destroys this idea, and still give away only 2000 fans here.

                        St Paul
                        9386 / 18064 52%
                        10794 / 18064 60%
                        20180 / 36128 56%
                        Day 1:
                        Western at North Dakota: 11,500*
                        BU at Minnesota: 9700 (and how cool is this matchup on campus)

                        Day 2:
                        Minnesota at North Dakota: 11,500* (and the Ralph would never be louder)

                        Total: 32,700 very happy fans.

                        You want ESPN to put NCAA hockey games on television? Give them environments like this, instead of the Resch.

                        *Assuming NCAA embargos weren't in effect. This is all hypothetical anyway. Lawson would be rocking for a playoff game, though.

                        Worcester
                        5925 / 12239 48%
                        4470 / 12239 37%
                        10395 / 24478 42%
                        Day 1:
                        Air Force at BC: 4500
                        Maine at UMD: 6500

                        Day 2:
                        UMD at BC: 5500

                        Total: 16,500

                        BC attendance is tough to guess, perhaps some Easterners can help me here. I know they have some attendance trouble, hard for me to tell how much they'll sell for playoff games with a week's notice each. I could be undervaluing.

                        47566 / 94848 50%
                        12 Game total: 69,300.

                        This is kind of the doomsday situation people who are concerned about small arenas describe; Union, with a capacity of 2500, hosts two games. Ferris, capacity 2457, hosts two games. BC, fickle attendance, hosts two games. Wisconsin, the highest-drawing home team in the sport, doesn't make the tournament.

                        The home sites will draw more fans. It's not close.

                        You can argue that this is guesswork, and you would be correct. But these are educated guesses. We're not talking about margin of error; we're discussing an estimated difference of 21,300 fans.

                        Play the games at home sites.
                        Jesus Saves

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                        • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                          I just don't understand making attendance that big a deal.

                          Never mind the regionals - look at the Frozen Four. Did Denver care that their repeat championship in '05 came at a venue where demand for tickets was so soft that some folks didn't even both looking for buyers? I left my extras on a bench outside an arena entrance. From my perspective, Maine's "comeback" title in 99 was not diminished in any way by the fact that it happened at sparsely-attended Anaheim. Heck, I think there were Team USA hockey games at the '80 Olympics that didn't sell out.

                          I'd rather try to work around the edges and improve attendance at a neutral site than deal with the diminished excitement of campus sites. Sure, on a game by game basis, anything can happen. In the bigger picture, though, you have to know that upsets will be less likely than they already are. And isn't that the goal? It's called March Madness. Not March-Organized-to-Maximize-Attendance-and-Revenue-While-Protecting-Higher-Seeds-at-the-Expense-of-Diminished-Unpredictability.
                          1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1995 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2012(!)

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                          • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                            Originally posted by Almington View Post
                            Except that all of the regional sites were single tickets for both of the semi finals, your examples are breaking the games into two separate tickets, of course you can easily match that attendance.

                            Plus, the X didn't open the 2nd deck, which means that the games were sold out, or close to sold out, with only ~10,000 tickets available to the general public (the other tickets were the boxes which the owners had to buy, and the allotment for the players friends & families). I'm sure that if they had they would have been able to sell many more tickets to the championship game.

                            Home ice to the higher seed is great, but it isn't feasible to have EVERY school hold its arena open for two weekends every year for games that most likely won't be played.
                            The X didn't open the second deck because they didn't sell enough tickets. They would have been quite willing to open it if demand were there.

                            Not every school has to. A team with no expectation to host a game doesn't have to, and a team that doesn't think it's worth the effort doesn't have to, or may try to secure another rink. I think teams like Minnesota, North Dakota, and Michigan will have no trouble clearing their rink's schedule for at least one half-day on two different weekends.

                            Of course my examples break the games into two separate tickets; they are in different locations and sometimes at different times. Trust me, you're not going to juice up attendance at the Resch Center by splitting the ticket.
                            Jesus Saves

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                            • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                              Originally posted by Caustic Undertow View Post
                              How would the NCAA tournament have looked this year if the games were played at home arenas instead of regionals? Let's compare. Assumptions used here: First round on the first weekend (just past). Second round next weekend (March 30 and/or 31). Prices are assumed to be reasonable, instead of outrageous like they were in St. Paul; not illogical since if you divide the price in half for a single day at St. Paul, as you are dividing the games in half, you arrive at a reasonable price.

                              You can argue that this is guesswork, and you would be correct. But these are educated guesses. We're not talking about margin of error; we're discussing an estimated difference of 21,300 fans.

                              Play the games at home sites.
                              You have to double the semi final attendance to account for the fact that one semifinal ticket at the regional matched up with two tickets for the on campus sites.

                              GB: ~9,000 vs ~11,500
                              BP: ~15,000 vs ~8,500
                              MN: ~30,000 vs ~32,000 (Noting that the X was near capacity with the seats that were not released for sale)
                              WO: ~15,000 vs ~16,500

                              Total: 69,000 vs 67,500 Basically a wash from an attendance standpoint, at least from within any margin of error from the assumptions and given the short time given to actually sell the on-campus tickets. A much stronger argument is based on the atmosphere of the games as opposed to the actual tickets sold.

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                              • Re: More proof that the Regional system is a disaster: Today's attendance at the X is

                                Originally posted by amherstblackbear View Post
                                I just don't understand making attendance that big a deal.

                                Never mind the regionals - look at the Frozen Four. Did Denver care that their repeat championship in '05 came at a venue where demand for tickets was so soft that some folks didn't even both looking for buyers? I left my extras on a bench outside an arena entrance. From my perspective, Maine's "comeback" title in 99 was not diminished in any way by the fact that it happened at sparsely-attended Anaheim. Heck, I think there were Team USA hockey games at the '80 Olympics that didn't sell out.

                                I'd rather try to work around the edges and improve attendance at a neutral site than deal with the diminished excitement of campus sites. Sure, on a game by game basis, anything can happen. In the bigger picture, though, you have to know that upsets will be less likely than they already are. And isn't that the goal? It's called March Madness. Not March-Organized-to-Maximize-Attendance-and-Revenue-While-Protecting-Higher-Seeds-at-the-Expense-of-Diminished-Unpredictability.
                                March Madness is basketball.

                                This probably doesn't make as much sense to Easterners who think that two hours is a long way to drive to a hockey game; you get a regional within easy distance every year, often two. Out west it's a bit different. Three hockey teams from lower Michigan made the NCAA tournament; the closest regional was Green Bay, which was a whopping 7 hour (or more) drive for each. Next year there are regionals in Grand Rapids and Toledo--and the entire (current) WCHA gets the shaft.

                                Meanwhile, Worcester and Bridgeport are two hours and change apart, and next year, it's... Manchester and Providence.

                                I realize there are a lot of teams in a close area; that's part of the point, the current system is imballanced because the "West" is so spread out. In the "East" five hours of driving will cover virtually the entire HEA footprint; out "West" five hours is the shortest distance Michigan Tech drives to play any current WCHA opponent. In the "East" a remote team like Cornell has to drive 4.5 hours to get to Boston; out "West" it's 19 hours between Ann Arbor and Denver.

                                To be honest with you, Western fans who drive hours to see their teams play on the road or in regionals (It's worth noting that even with the Green Bay regional at least 8 hours of driving away Michigan still had over 1000 fans there on Friday. I "only" had to drive five hours to get there) and wish they could see their own teams play more scratch their head at the Eastern regionals. How does a regional in Worcester not sell out? Sure, it used to do better, but that's kind of the point; the regionals aren't working even when they should.
                                Jesus Saves

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