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  • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

    The underlying question is where does Minnesota want to go? Cause it's been trending more and more red every election cycle. People think just because we've been the "Sure State for the Democratic Party in Presidential Elections" that there isn't real trends that point the other direction. Does Minnesota stay liberal? Stay Blue? Or do they naturally progress to be like Wisconsin and Iowa their two closest neighbors
    **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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    • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

      Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
      The underlying question is where does Minnesota want to go? Cause it's been trending more and more red every election cycle. People think just because we've been the "Sure State for the Democratic Party in Presidential Elections" that there isn't real trends that point the other direction. Does Minnesota stay liberal? Stay Blue? Or do they naturally progress to be like Wisconsin and Iowa their two closest neighbors
      Presumably the white trash part of the state gets redder, the college / city portion gets bluer, and then the suburbanites vote for whoever lies to them most effectively each cycle. Just like about 40 other states.
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      • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

        Originally posted by Kepler View Post

        Fear is a far more effective motivator of the right than the left because conservatism has its roots in fear. It has been used in every rightwing campaign to make people first afraid and then violent. It is the lynchpin of fascism.
        Roots at what depth? Something like the amygdala factor?

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        • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

          Originally posted by burd View Post
          Roots at what depth? The amygdala factor?
          I don't know about that. I meant philosophy. Conservatism is resistance to change. It is the natural tendency to prefer to stay at X rather than move to Y because the thing about X that's certain is I haven't died at X yet.

          That's why the American right is no longer conservative. They have been radically changing America for thirty years, now. They are Utopians. Paradoxically, this could mean they are less likely to be motivated by fear, but instead can be motivated by fanaticism.
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          • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            The left used to scare old ladies that the GOP would take away their social security, but that's got a lot more credence since the GOP is trying to take away their social security. Likewise scaring women that the GOP wants to grab them by the p-ssy, which, well, given this GOP again it's perfectly understandable.

            The Deniers would view environmentalism as a scare tactic but the Deniers are also illiterate bozos.

            I don't think the left has anything equivalent to the fullscale lies the right uses, e.g. "IF YOU VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS THEY WILL TAKE YOUR GUNZ AND MAKE CHRISTIANITY ILLEGAL AND TAKE ALL YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY BECAUSE COMMUNISM OH NOES!!!!11"

            Fear is a far more effective motivator of the right than the left because conservatism has its roots in fear. It has been used in every rightwing campaign to make people first afraid and then violent. It is the lynchpin of fascism.
            Right, I would agree and I'm not trying to argue that fear tactics never work on the left or should never be used. But I think we'd both agree that it's probably not as effective as running on actual material improvement of peoples' everyday lives. Rather than "we're not WI" or "we're not Trump" or what you're not planning to do essentially (which is basically the bare minimum).
            Last edited by trixR4kids; 02-13-2018, 02:33 PM.

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            • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

              Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
              Right, I would agree and I'm not trying to argue that fear tactics never work on the left or should never be used. But I think we'd both agree that it's probably not as effective as running on actual material improvement of peoples' everyday lives.
              But the only people that can make that argument are currently the ones in office. Otherwise it is all scare tactics to a degree.

              Do you really think the person who runs against Trump in 2020 isnt going to use fear in some capacity? Of course they are.
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              • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                I don't know about that. I meant philosophy. Conservatism is resistance to change. It is the natural tendency to prefer to stay at X rather than move to Y because the thing about X that's certain is I haven't died at X yet.

                That's why the American right is no longer conservative. They have been radically changing America for thirty years, now. They are Utopians. Paradoxically, this could mean they are less likely to be motivated by fear, but instead can be motivated by fanaticism.
                Not quite.

                From the same author I quoted in a different thread.

                The key thing here is not to confuse a conservative with a member of the radical right. A conservative isn't for a God fearing nation in which non-believers are prosecuted by the law. They'd rather have people go to church on Sundays on their own free will. They would appreciate not being treated like a villain because they do go to church, pray before a major event, or place a symbol of their faith in a public area. They don't want to tear down crosses that have been in place for more than fifty years because someone has suddenly found a symbol of their faith insulting.

                A conservative is basically against change. They'll admit that things may not be exactly fair, but the correction should be a minor tweak of the system and not the elimination of the system. That's the real definition of a conservative. It isn't that they are pro-war, pro-business, or anti-gay. They just don't want radical change in how things have been up to now.

                In a funny way, conservatives do believe that people should have a lot more freedom in how they can act. They feel that if you own a business, then you have the right to say who works for you. That means you don't have to hire someone to satisfy some equal opportunity criteria. Of course, that does deny equal opportunity to some people but it isn't a result of a dictate by law.

                I'm not saying that conservatives are entirely right. Some of their opposition to change allows civil injustices to continue. I'm just saying that is the last kind of person who would adopt radical change in the American political system.
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                • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                  Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                  But the only people that can make that argument are currently the ones in office. Otherwise it is all scare tactics to a degree.

                  Do you really think the person who runs against Trump in 2020 isnt going to use fear in some capacity? Of course they are.
                  Well I remember saying that the left should use fear on some level as a motivator so I'm not entirely against it being used on some level, that's fine. I just hope that isn't the main takeaway of what he plans to do because to most people that more or less means "status quo" and we've seen recently that probably isn't a winning strategy. I think in MN that could work since we're better off than most states including WI but like I've said I feel like Dayton became more and more unpopular during his tenure and I think that's part of why the other levers of power turned red in 2016 as well as explained Trump's somewhat narrow (or at least more narrow than usual) defeat in this state.

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                  • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                    Originally posted by joecct View Post
                    Not quite.

                    From the same author I quoted in a different thread.
                    Seems to me you said exactly what I said, just using different words. And the author seems unaware or unwilling to acknowledge that conservatism as he (and you, and I) define it ceased to exist in the United States as a major political force fifty years ago, and was replaced by a frothing, radical reactionary movement of hair (hare?)-brained social and economic engineering.

                    Edit: it's "hare."
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                    • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      Presumably the white trash part of the state gets redder, the college / city portion gets bluer, and then the suburbanites vote for whoever lies to them most effectively each cycle. Just like about 40 other states.
                      Correct. And any Democrat that does not recognize that trend is doomed to failure or luck.
                      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                      • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                        Speaking of why Ds lose the heartland

                        https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...-racist-natio/
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                        ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                        - Benjamin Franklin

                        Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                        I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                        • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                          Yes the Dems are losing the heartland because of some (high school) student group in San Fran -_-

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                          • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            How many farmers and laborers make up the DFL today?

                            Blue collar liberals went out with Al Smith PBUH. Even a "blue collar" icon like Handsome Joe is just playing a part. Liberalism has been a college pep band since the 60s, which also dates to when all the anti-intellectual drivel dredged up against the left went plaid.
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                            • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                              Originally posted by joecct View Post
                              Speaking of why Ds lose the heartland

                              https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...-racist-natio/
                              Because they aren't white supremacists? Yeah, that's kind of the point.

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                              • Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

                                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                                Speaking of why Ds lose the heartland

                                https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...-racist-natio/
                                America is urban. "The heartland" is a sepia-toned manipulative beer ad about a place that doesn't exist and never did.

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