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Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

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  • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Originally posted by alfablue View Post
    Many states allow human sacrifice right now. It's called the death penalty.

    It's just that the first amendment took blasphemy off the list of capitol offenses.
    No, human sacrifice wasn't some form of punishment, some ancient religions would sacrifice innocent people as a sign of devotion to their god(s). While yes, Leviticus will tell you that people were to be killed in God's name for a host of silly transgressions, those were punishments and not sacrifices.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

    "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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    • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

      Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
      No, human sacrifice wasn't some form of punishment, some ancient religions would sacrifice innocent people as a sign of devotion to their god(s). While yes, Leviticus will tell you that people were to be killed in God's name for a host of silly transgressions, those were punishments and not sacrifices.
      Relative to religious sacrifice, sure, that's a good point.

      But the context that is being used as an example is a religion punishing people they think have done something bad- aka- chopping the head off someone who has made Islam look bad. Given that- it's no difference than where a state kills someone for doing something we all think is bad. Terrorist chopping people's heads off isn't a sacrifice to a god to help the harvest. It's them punishing someone, as a single person or a group of people.

      (I'm not for it, I just listen to their justifications, and you can easily see times where states to the same kind of thing)

      It's funny how we take a moral high ground on so many things.

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      • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

        Originally posted by alfablue View Post
        Relative to religious sacrifice, sure, that's a good point.

        But the context that is being used as an example is a religion punishing people they think have done something bad- aka- chopping the head off someone who has made Islam look bad. Given that- it's no difference than where a state kills someone for doing something we all think is bad. Terrorist chopping people's heads off isn't a sacrifice to a god to help the harvest. It's them punishing someone, as a single person or a group of people.

        (I'm not for it, I just listen to their justifications, and you can easily see times where states to the same kind of thing)

        It's funny how we take a moral high ground on so many things.
        The problem is that he's set a misguided - even evil - direction to the conversation. Fresh Fish wrongly equates human sacrifice in worship of one's religion, a sacrifice that was meant to ward off future evils, provide for a good harvest, and all the various bounties the earth bestows upon us with religious punishment that purges existing evil from the world as his/her god sees it.

        The SCOTUS case addressed human sacrifice, not murder. The court says that intentionally killing someone, regardless of the reason, can always be tried as murder because the First Amendment will offer the accused absolutely no protection.
        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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        • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

          Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
          The problem is that he's set a misguided - even evil - direction to the conversation. Fresh Fish wrongly equates human sacrifice in worship of one's religion, a sacrifice that was meant to ward off future evils, provide for a good harvest, and all the various bounties the earth bestows upon us with religious punishment that purges existing evil from the world as his/her god sees it.

          The SCOTUS case addressed human sacrifice, not murder. The court says that intentionally killing someone, regardless of the reason, can always be tried as murder because the First Amendment will offer the accused absolutely no protection.
          Which is why I brought it up like I do.

          If anyone can claim that chopping people's heads off is some kind of religious sacrifice, then the connection to what they are ACTUALLY doing is exactly the same as the death penalty. Which makes the original claim rather absurd. Or hypocritical- depending on how the reaction is seen.

          I agree that terrorists are evil, but if people can't see that many of OUR actions can easily be seen as equally evil- well....

          The only way one can actually win a terrorist war is to prevent people from seeing terrorism as a good path.

          You can never kill all of the people who are willing to kill you, as it's easy to make up new reasons to hate you. So the key is to stop people from hating you.

          That's the really hilarious thing about the travel ban. The amount of people that it will prevent is the the same that people will sneak in. So once there's an attack on US soil, it's super easy to claim that X is super harmful and we need to close the borders- it's just an excuse to justify biases. That's how history has always played out in an us vs them world. Evil people will do whatever they can to make them seem to not be, just so that they can be. And fear is the best way to do that.

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          • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

            Islam in the third largest religion in the world, IIRC, with just over 1.6 billion people. You have only a few people committed to these terrorist organizations. ISIL is known, documented by people who've escaped their "draft" or enslavement, that many of their fighters were forced into serving them, often doped up on narcotics, and when given the chance they abandon ISIL like a fundamentalist Christian fleeing a natural history museum.

            So now we have a few hundred acts of terrorism, put in place by up to a couple hundred people per operation - usually far fewer than that. The percentages of the overall Muslim population that can be credibly tied to terrorism are tiny, far less than 1%, and yet here we have our government trying to make a blanket ban on immigrants and refugees from countries with majority Muslim populations. Way to prey on fear, boys.
            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

            Comment


            • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

              Shut up you hippie!
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              • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                Originally posted by alfablue View Post

                I agree that terrorists are evil, but if people can't see that many of OUR actions can easily be seen as equally evil- well....
                a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

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                • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                  Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
                  While you don't have to agree what so ever with the opposition, it can help understand how they think.

                  We don't see our actions as evil, but I can see how others can think that way.

                  Just like how they can justify cutting the heads off of people.

                  Or is it shocking to you that people actually think differently from each other?

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                  • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                    Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                    when given the chance they abandon ISIL like a fundamentalist Christian fleeing a natural history museum


                    The Muslim ban is a cynical appeal to fear to win votes. My position is close to Maher's. The evergreen problem is violent fanaticism. Religious fanaticism has ranked among the most destructive rallying cries in human history. Although Islam is no more inherently violent than Christianity, it is foolish to deny that right now the worst violent ideological troublemaker in the world is violent Islamic fanaticism. They are going through a cuckoo fundamentalist shake out century, and we ought not to pretend that they are quiescent. In comparison, violent Christian fanaticism is currently relatively dormant. It could of course break out as an epidemic or even a pandemic if conditions are right. We need to keep an eye on that. But right now it is false equivalency to stress the potentiality of violence is equal while ignoring actual events. The earnest point is the booms are coming from inside the ummah.

                    But. By far the most numerous victims of violent Muslim fanaticism are Muslims, and we should be welcoming them as refugees the way we have been a beacon to the world throughout our history. We should remember that all the pseudo-sociological bigotry now being applied to Muslims as a whole by reactionaries has been trotted out to smear every immigrant group in our history: Germans, Irish, Italians, Asians, Jews, Central Europeans, West Indians, now Muslims. We can acknowledge that large groups of refugees fleeing trouble can be easily broadbrushed as the source of danger by Fortress America ideologues, when in reality they are innocent victims running in fear. To us. We have a general moral duty to help them as humans, and we have a particular historical duty to help them as Americans. That is the real American exceptionalism.

                    But, again. If a Muslim commits a terrorist action because of violent Muslim fanatical motivations we should call it violent Muslim extremism, just as if a Christian commits a terrorist action because of ideological motivations we should call it violent Christian extremism. The key word is violent, but adding the religion is not in itself smearing all believers, it's stating a useful fact -- contextualizing the act. It adds useful information. After all, many of the pet causes of violent Muslim extremism are shared by violent Christian extremism. If somebody shoots up Planned Parenthood or breaks the windows in a synagogue, it could just as easily be either. It is valid to identify which nutbar ideology is involved in the particular event.

                    We should not refrain from speaking truth simply because idiots will misapply those facts. That allows the idiots to control the dialog, and when we do that we wind up with disasters like the current ruling junta.
                    Last edited by Kepler; 03-20-2017, 07:44 AM.
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                    • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                      Then by that account shouldnt we also say "Violent Atheist Extremism"? Plenty of Non=God d-bags do this stuff too.

                      I think we label things too much and it causes too many problems. We already call every violent act by a Muslim "terrorism" that is good enough.
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                      • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                        Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                        Then by that account shouldnt we also say "Violent Atheist Extremism"? Plenty of Non=God d-bags do this stuff too.
                        If they do it in the name of atheist violent extremism, then yes, but I can't think of a currently operating atheist terrorist ideology. That's not to say it's logically impossible, but atheism tends towards the high tail of the intellectual spectrum, and violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
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                        • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                          Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                          Then by that account shouldnt we also say "Violent Atheist Extremism"? Plenty of Non=God d-bags do this stuff too.

                          I think we label things too much and it causes too many problems. We already call every violent act by a Muslim "terrorism" that is good enough.
                          Terrorism used to be just against the Law. Now it's war. It's the worst case scenario. Hard to believe that the human race can devolve but I think they have in this case.
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                          • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                            Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                            Terrorism used to be just against the Law. Now it's war.
                            If you think this is a new development you need to get to the history section of the library more often.

                            Terrorism on the level of warfare is the norm in human history. It is only rarely that large scale violence has a territorial or dynastic motivation. The running caption of humanity is "I believe x is so important that if you don't I get to kill you." Solve for x: religion, capitalism, ethnic nationalism -- the cause is the manifestation of the ape drive to intimidate.
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                            • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              The Muslim ban is a cynical appeal to fear to win votes. My position is close to Maher's. The evergreen problem is violent fanaticism. Religious fanaticism has ranked among the most destructive rallying cries in human history. Although Islam is no more inherently violent than Christianity, it is foolish to deny that right now the worst violent ideological troublemaker in the world is violent Islamic fanaticism. They are going through a cuckoo fundamentalist shake out century, and we ought not to pretend that they are quiescent. In comparison, violent Christian fanaticism is currently relatively dormant. It could of course break out as an epidemic or even a pandemic if conditions are right. We need to keep an eye on that. But right now it is false equivalency to stress the potentiality of violence is equal while ignoring actual events. The earnest point is the booms are coming from inside the ummah.
                              Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding the problem again.

                              This is not a religious issue. Do not blame Islam or Christianity for terror. This is a fanaticism issue. These people hate the US and the west in general - and its not because they believe in a God. If you don't understand the problem you cannot find a solution.
                              Go Gophers!

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                              • Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

                                Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                                Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding the problem again.

                                This is not a religious issue. Do not blame Islam or Christianity for terror. This is a fanaticism issue. These people hate the US and the west in general - and its not because they believe in a God. If you don't understand the problem you cannot find a solution.
                                How is banning travel to the US, even temporarily, a solution?

                                If it was really about people who have attacked or threatened the US- it would HAVE to be a very different set of countries.

                                This is not a solution to that, what so ever.

                                For that matter, people who maybe on the fence, as they still thought the US was a still a beacon of hope may go over to the side that hates us.

                                In essence, you protect our country from essentially nothing, but give more hope to our enemy.

                                Otherwise, not using logic, it's just a play on fear.

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