Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[The Rube]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I don't think expansion is making sh** up. It's interesting. I'm a nerd and I love Canon as much as the next guy. However, I also love storytelling and expansion of that Canon. It's like with this film everyone wants something new but still wants it all to fit in a neat little box. That doesn't make and sense to me.

Also, fiction is making sh** up. Isn't this fiction? I didn't see based on a true story anywhere.

I don't know anything about the books/etc really, but I heard that the books basically don't exist anymore? Something like that? So some stuff in the movies are conflicting with some of that stuff? You and Handy could maybe shed some light on that subject....

Edit: the underlined is well-stated, as to what I mean with that original post.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I don't know anything about the books/etc really, but I heard that the books basically don't exist anymore? Something like that? So some stuff in the movies are conflicting with some of that stuff? You and Handy could maybe shed some light on that subject....

Edit: the underlined is well-stated, as to what I mean with that original post.

As JJ Abrams said during numerous interviews they threw everything out except movies 4, 5, and 6. So, if you want to consider what is Canon for 7, 8, and 9 that's it.

[BassAle]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I just wish it wasn’t so derivative of 4,5,6

They could have had Luke come back to rebuild the Jedi order and save the New Republic from a mysterious new dark Jedi. I don’t like how basically it’s like “okay, there is a new empire but we call them something else, they have a new Death Star, there is a new emperor but we call him the supreme leader, and there is even a Darth Vader wannabe and the only hope is some young person that didn’t know they had Jedi powers until now”

[ticapnews]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

A few notes on Canon, Legends and the Force:

Is Luke the father of Broom Boy? No. Is it biologically possible? Sure. We're in a galaxy with cloning, transferring part of your consciousness to a computer and virgin birth. As far as we know he has the right tools for the job. However, the Canon novel Bloodline tells us Luke was still running his Jedi Academy as of six years before the events of TFA so he was kinda preoccupied. Also remember that Jedi do not have kids. Anakin was the rare exception to this. The younglings we see running around the Jedi Academy on Coruscant aren't the kids of Yoda, Qui-Gon or Mace Windu.

This also goes to Rey's parentage. Of course her parents were nobodies. Shmi Skywalker was a nobody. Obi-Wan's parents were nobodies. Palpatine's parents were nobodies.

Force projection is not a new power. It wasn't in Canon until TLJ, but it was something used by both Jedi and Sith in Legends. The concept isn't completely foreign to Kylo Ren as he thinks the Force itself is setting up the connection since the mental strength required would kill Rey. As we learn, it was really Snoke all along. Luke then uses the ability in his final confrontation with Ren and the attempt does essentially drain him. He probably could have recovered, but at what cost and to what end? In that moment he was ready to give himself up to become one with the Force just as he had witnessed Obi-Wan and Yoda do.

Where did Leia in Space come from? Nowhere in Canon or Legends so it seems that Force power originated in the mind of Rian Johnson. That moment took me out of the movie although it was highly emotional given that it was Leia/Carrie Fisher. On subsequent viewings it doesn't improve.

Oh, and the "Poe, don't be a hothead and become a leader" is a lesson he has learned three times now. Twice in comics and now in the movie. Wonder if it'll take this time...

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I just wish it wasn’t so derivative of 4,5,6

They could have had Luke come back to rebuild the Jedi order and save the New Republic from a mysterious new dark Jedi. I don’t like how basically it’s like “okay, there is a new empire but we call them something else, they have a new Death Star, there is a new emperor but we call him the supreme leader, and there is even a Darth Vader wannabe and the only hope is some young person that didn’t know they had Jedi powers until now”

Darth Vader wannabe? Darth Vader never ascended. Ren did. That's kicking Vader's ***. Luke coming back and training someone to knock out a mysterious Dark Jedi would have not made sense given that Skywalker's legacy is one of Tragedy. Han, Luke, and Leia were the trilogy and all them will die tragically. Han killed by his son. Luke failing in his mission but at least leaving Rey behind as hope. And Leia's tragic end yet to come.

[The Rube]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

As JJ Abrams said during numerous interviews they threw everything out except movies 4, 5, and 6. So, if you want to consider what is Canon for 7, 8, and 9 that's it.

Ok, thank you and the others for shedding some light on this.

As for broom boy...given the past movies (noted: even if only 4, 5, and 6), I think there will be a connection made to some sort of major character. Heck, wouldn't it be messed up if it were Kylo's kid? Sure, that'd be one giant tinfoil hat I'm wearing, but wowzers.

[alfablue]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

I don't think expansion is making sh** up. It's interesting. I'm a nerd and I love Canon as much as the next guy. However, I also love storytelling and expansion of that Canon. It's like with this film everyone wants something new but still wants it all to fit in a neat little box. That doesn't make and sense to me.

Also, fiction is making sh** up. Isn't this fiction? I didn't see based on a true story anywhere.

Here's the thing- the Force is supposed to be centuries if not millennia old, right? So in all of the past episodes, where these powers would have been rather handy- where are they? This new, and very powerful, set of powers can not be just found and used as a theoretical end of the Jedi come.

That makes as much sense as when the ship was torn apart by another going at light speed- and that somehow devastated the situation with Rose and Finn so much that every storm trooper around them is dead, they are not- and all of a sudden, the chrome leader walks in from a totally different area- when they were all standing together. That whole end of that scene makes no sense, other than to set up yet another hand to hand battle to make us "doubt" the outcome. But that outcome had already been decided based on the repeat of A New Hope and The Return of the Jedi story lines, almost exactly. To me, the end was never in question, other than how does Leia die, since she's dead in real life.

Sure, fiction is making st!! up, but a consistent story line is needed to make it less distracting.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Here's the thing- the Force is supposed to be centuries if not millennia old, right? So in all of the past episodes, where these powers would have been rather handy- where are they? This new, and very powerful, set of powers can not be just found and used as a theoretical end of the Jedi come.

That makes as much sense as when the ship was torn apart by another going at light speed- and that somehow devastated the situation with Rose and Finn so much that every storm trooper around them is dead, they are not- and all of a sudden, the chrome leader walks in from a totally different area- when they were all standing together. That whole end of that scene makes no sense, other than to set up yet another hand to hand battle to make us "doubt" the outcome. But that outcome had already been decided based on the repeat of A New Hope and The Return of the Jedi story lines, almost exactly. To me, the end was never in question, other than how does Leia die, since she's dead in real life.

Sure, fiction is making st!! up, but a consistent story line is needed to make it less distracting.

Just because those powers weren't shown before doesn't mean they didn't exist. Consistency is boring. Leia showing the massive power she did was awesome. And, remember Kenobi said by Vader killing him he would become more powerful. More powerful how? Never really saw.

End never in question? The end of this is truly in question. Ren ascended. Where does that go? Where does Rey go? Grey or Light is still in question. How does Leia die, or do they have enough film in the bucket to keep her alive? You keep ignoring the ascension. In 6 films it was never shown. That was awesome and worth the price of admission alone. Snoke's arrogance rivaled Palpatine's.

Again, by asking for consistency you're putting everything into a little box and then asking for difference at the same time. What's different? If you wanted different A Force Awakens would have had to be much different. They changed things up and left many questions to be answered to the 9th film. That's a great outcome. If Snoke were still around and Ren was still conflicted I would have been bored to tears. Those two things change everything.

[The Rube]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Just because those powers weren't shown before doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Truth. I mean, can EVERY Jedi be exactly on the same level of skill? I'm guessing not. Yoda was the super-Jedi in the earlier movies, whereas Luke was just a rookie Jedi, so to speak. Powers can grow, etc.

[alfablue]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Just because those powers weren't shown before doesn't mean they didn't exist. Consistency is boring. Leia showing the massive power she did was awesome. And, remember Kenobi said by Vader killing him he would become more powerful. More powerful how? Never really saw.

Except there were many situations where the same powers would have been exactly what was called for. Luke talking directly with dad. Ben projecting himself in battle with Vader, etc. Especially for Luke- for him to have this power NOW makes no sense. He could have made sure Snoke would have had a tougher time getting where he did, even on that remote planet.

Again, it's one heck of a power to find at just the right time in a story like that.

End never in question? The end of this is truly in question. Ren ascended. Where does that go? Where does Rey go? Grey or Light is still in question. How does Leia die, or do they have enough film in the bucket to keep her alive? You keep ignoring the ascension. In 6 films it was never shown. That was awesome and worth the price of admission alone. Snoke's arrogance rivaled Palpatine's.

Yes, it was not in question. The good guys would somewhat win and get away, and the bad guys would suffer a lot of damage, and also get away. Just like the end of Return.

Who cares about ascension? IMHO, that's a pretty small detail that ended a scene lifted directly from Return. Again, I don't see the significance because of the distraction comparing the scenes to each other in my head. THAT REALLY BUGGED ME. I should not be comparing movies like that, but the story was so similar, it was hard not to do.

Again, by asking for consistency you're putting everything into a little box and then asking for difference at the same time. What's different? If you wanted different A Force Awakens would have had to be much different. They changed things up and left many questions to be answered to the 9th film. That's a great outcome. If Snoke were still around and Ren was still conflicted I would have been bored to tears. Those two things change everything.

What you saw was "new" stuff in an old story, and it somehow makes it better. I would like consistent stuff in a NEW story. Not one where small things were altered.

They could have had the same details happen in a totally new way, and it would have been far better. This was Return of the Jedi where Vader didn't get so injured and took the dark by force.

I did want a different F-A. Again, once they made it mostly a copy of A New Hope, the end was not in that much doubt. By keeping Ben/Ren evil, the end result is that there are some easy story lines to go on and make more movies. Forgive me that I wanted a new story line to end in that general result.

[ticapnews]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

How does Leia die, or do they have enough film in the bucket to keep her alive?

If we take Kathleen Kennedy at her word (and I do) Carrie Fisher will not appear in IX in any way, shape or form. No CGI like in Rogue One and no archival footage that they've already shot. JJ would need to make a pretty compelling case to Kennedy to convince her to go back on that word. If VII was supposed to be Han, VII was supposed to be Luke and IX was supposed to be Leia and they stick to that, then the best possible way to go would be to recast the character. If you think there is a civil war in the fanbase now, imagine the debate if they took that path. My gut tells me Colin Trevorrow might have been replaced as the director in part because he wanted to recast and LucasFilm did not. I am not basing this on anything (and no Handy, it's not from one of those You Tube sites you hate) it is simply a possible explanation. I think the reasoning behind the scenes go way beyond, "He made a movie that tanked at the box office so lose him." That means she dies off screen. It will either be between movies or her ship will be blown up in the opening scenes of IX.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Except there were many situations where the same powers would have been exactly what was called for. Luke talking directly with dad. Ben projecting himself in battle with Vader, etc. Especially for Luke- for him to have this power NOW makes no sense. He could have made sure Snoke would have had a tougher time getting where he did, even on that remote planet.

Again, it's one heck of a power to find at just the right time in a story like that.



Yes, it was not in question. The good guys would somewhat win and get away, and the bad guys would suffer a lot of damage, and also get away. Just like the end of Return.

Who cares about ascension? IMHO, that's a pretty small detail that ended a scene lifted directly from Return. Again, I don't see the significance because of the distraction comparing the scenes to each other in my head. THAT REALLY BUGGED ME. I should not be comparing movies like that, but the story was so similar, it was hard not to do.


What you saw was "new" stuff in an old story, and it somehow makes it better. I would like consistent stuff in a NEW story. Not one where small things were altered.

They could have had the same details happen in a totally new way, and it would have been far better. This was Return of the Jedi where Vader didn't get so injured and took the dark by force.

I did want a different F-A. Again, once they made it mostly a copy of A New Hope, the end was not in that much doubt. By keeping Ben/Ren evil, the end result is that there are some easy story lines to go on and make more movies. Forgive me that I wanted a new story line to end in that general result.

The ascension is a small detail? You missed the entire premise of the film. Not surprising based on your posts. The ascension is everything. It completes the Skywalker legacy. One that Vader never finished.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

That means she dies off screen. It will either be between movies or her ship will be blown up in the opening scenes of IX.

I'd like that. I think that's the way they need to handle it. And a big funeral onscreen would be a fitting tribute to Carrie.

[ticapnews]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Except there were many situations where the same powers would have been exactly what was called for. Luke talking directly with dad. Ben projecting himself in battle with Vader, etc. Especially for Luke- for him to have this power NOW makes no sense. He could have made sure Snoke would have had a tougher time getting where he did, even on that remote planet.

Again, it's one heck of a power to find at just the right time in a story like that.

We see the conversation between Luke and Anakin at the end of ESB but that power not being used can easily be explained. Ren says right off the top that the mental strength required would kill Rey, so even if he knew about it we know Luke couldn't do this back then. What about Anakin? He was probably strong enough. He was a powerful Jedi. But would it have been effective? He was trying to convince Luke to join him. The mental link between the two might have been Vader's best chance. Luke was in a fragile state...a man he hated with a passion had just cut off his arm and then revealed that he was in fact the kid's father. Had Vader linked the two like we saw in TLJ it would have freaked Luke the hell out and driven him away.

There's also the question if Anakin even knew about the ability. The emperor never showed him. He didn't use the ability. Maybe it was an ability the emperor forbade Vader to use. It could be that the ability was referenced in the Whills but the knowledge forgotten over the millennia. Snoke discovered the power and used it to link Rey and Kylo. Luke was reminded of the power when he saw Snoke use it and decided to use it himself in a last ditch effort to save his sister and what remained of the rebellion.

Fact is people are going to find ways to pick the movies apart. It's what we do. Some were angered when I did it to Justice League (although I still gave it a positive review a fact they seem to ignore) and it happens to every movie today. If ESB were released into theaters now there is no way the Internet crowd accepts a teenager doing gymnastics in a swamp while carrying a talking green muppet like a backpack. No. Way.

[The Rube]

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

From what I know, they are treating Carrie like Heath Ledger and the Batman movies. She will have a fitting end in the next movie, and no appearance/CGI. Gonna guess something along the lines of some dramatic dialogue of her passing away for the cause.