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  • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Originally posted by Riz View Post
    Obviously the current system is broken, and this COULD potentially fix it.

    What I'd like to see, is the "Super regional" with 8 teams idea with a west and an east site. The west alternates between ACCESSIBLE cities for visiting fans to get to (St. Paul, Denver, maybe Omaha, Milwaukee, or Detroit also). The east alternates between accessible cities there (Boston, New York City, Philly, and maybe some others like Pittsburgh).

    The brackets could still be seeded with two teams coming out into the Frozen Four. It could be a four day tournament at each site. Seats would be a lot more full, bracket integrity would be better, and sites would be more neutral for everybody then the #1 seed hosting idea, which I do think is important to the NCAA to some extent. Also, with the #1 seed what happens to fans of visiting teams that want to travel and watch their team play? That should ALWAYS be strongly encouraged in a regional team format and some cities, such as Duluth are extremely hard for visiting fans to get to.
    I'm going to disagree with the suggestion the current system is "obviously broken." To the contrary, I think the current system for college hockey has worked remarkably well.

    The current system was installed for the 2002-03 season, when we first went to 16 teams. Before that we had the "super regionals" which frequently had bad attendance and included byes, problems with a team getting to play in front of a favorable crowd when they hadn't really earned it, etc...

    This is now the 15th season under the current system. In those 15 years we've seen fifty different schools make the tournament. Without checking, I'm going to guess you don't see the same participation rate in sports like basketball or baseball or others.

    Furthermore, we've seen 26 different schools make the Frozen Four, and that's just in the first fourteen seasons, obviously. Six of this year's field have yet to make a Frozen Four, so that number could increase in April.

    Through the first fourteen seasons of this format, eighteen different programs have played in the championship game. When you consider there have only been 28 spots in that game over those past fourteen seasons, that's pretty remarkable.

    That's not to say that small tweaks can't be made here or there, but I don't believe for a second the system is broken.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

      Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
      I'm going to disagree with the suggestion the current system is "obviously broken." To the contrary, I think the current system for college hockey has worked remarkably well.

      The current system was installed for the 2002-03 season, when we first went to 16 teams. Before that we had the "super regionals" which frequently had bad attendance and included byes, problems with a team getting to play in front of a favorable crowd when they hadn't really earned it, etc...

      This is now the 15th season under the current system. In those 15 years we've seen fifty different schools make the tournament. Without checking, I'm going to guess you don't see the same participation rate in sports like basketball or baseball or others.

      Furthermore, we've seen 26 different schools make the Frozen Four, and that's just in the first fourteen seasons, obviously. Six of this year's field have yet to make a Frozen Four, so that number could increase in April.

      Through the first fourteen seasons of this format, eighteen different programs have played in the championship game. When you consider there have only been 28 spots in that game over those past fourteen seasons, that's pretty remarkable.

      That's not to say that small tweaks can't be made here or there, but I don't believe for a second the system is broken.
      Success of different teams has nothing to do with the system. It has to do with the natural parity in the sport in general. Teams get to play in front a favorable crowd now when they don't deserve it and attendance is frequently bad as well. I really did think you were describing the four regional setup and not the 12 team setup when you said that, although both are true.

      To be clear, I like the number of teams in the tournament, just not the locations of the regionals, especially recently.
      Last edited by Riz; 03-20-2017, 01:33 PM.

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      • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

        Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
        I'm going to disagree with the suggestion the current system is "obviously broken." To the contrary, I think the current system for college hockey has worked remarkably well.

        The current system was installed for the 2002-03 season, when we first went to 16 teams. Before that we had the "super regionals" which frequently had bad attendance and included byes, problems with a team getting to play in front of a favorable crowd when they hadn't really earned it, etc...

        This is now the 15th season under the current system. In those 15 years we've seen fifty different schools make the tournament. Without checking, I'm going to guess you don't see the same participation rate in sports like basketball or baseball or others.

        Furthermore, we've seen 26 different schools make the Frozen Four, and that's just in the first fourteen seasons, obviously. Six of this year's field have yet to make a Frozen Four, so that number could increase in April.

        Through the first fourteen seasons of this format, eighteen different programs have played in the championship game. When you consider there have only been 28 spots in that game over those past fourteen seasons, that's pretty remarkable.

        That's not to say that small tweaks can't be made here or there, but I don't believe for a second the system is broken.
        The problem is the NCAA expectations and requirements of regional sites that led to no on but Notre Dame at Compton bidding.

        Also, the biggest thing the NCAA could do is change the bye week from between regionals and frozen four to between selection sunday and regionals. Frozen Four is mostly sold out every year and people plan far in advance for that...while regionals typically have more expensive travel and require more lead time to get decent prices and get things worked out.
        Last edited by Shirtless Guy; 03-20-2017, 02:14 PM.
        Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

        Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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        • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

          Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
          The problem is the NCAA expectations and requirements of regional sites that led to no on but Notre Dame at Compton bidding.

          Also, the biggest thing the NCAA could do is change the bye week from between regionals and frozen four to between selection sunday and regionals. Frozen Four is mostly sold out every year and people plan far in advance for that...while regionals typically have more expensive travel and require more lead time to get decent prices and get things worked out.
          Except then you run into the reason why they pushed the Frozen Four out a week in the first place - competition with the Final Four.

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          • Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
            I take it as meaning teams that earn a 1 seed may have earned the right to play at home as opposed to teams that are seeded 3 or 4, especially at the expense of the top seeds.
            Correct, to me. UND should not get the advantage of rabid home fans filling the building when they are not the highest seed.

            And I would say the same about Minnesota at St Paul or at Mariucci, if they were not the #1

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            • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

              Originally posted by Numbers View Post
              Correct, to me. UND should not get the advantage of rabid home fans filling the building when they are not the highest seed.

              And I would say the same about Minnesota at St Paul or at Mariucci, if they were not the #1
              UND gets the advantage of rabid fans filling the building wherever they go so...

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              • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                Originally posted by Scarlet View Post
                Except then you run into the reason why they pushed the Frozen Four out a week in the first place - competition with the Final Four.
                so shift the entire hockey season one more week :P
                Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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                • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                  Originally posted by Numbers View Post
                  Correct, to me. UND should not get the advantage of rabid home fans filling the building when they are not the highest seed.

                  And I would say the same about Minnesota at St Paul or at Mariucci, if they were not the #1
                  Well a couple of points. First, Fargo is further from Grand Forks than Manchester is to Lowell, so by that logic we should not allow Lowell state teachers college in Manchester either. Same goes for Worcester and Holy Cross or any number of other eastern teams. Just because UND has rabid fans who travel well is no reason they shouldn't be a host. Though I admit no one wants to go to Fargo and play them. Especially Scott Sandelin.
                  Second, having a top team host is too much of an advantage,what with not only the home rink, but also some rinks are not Nhl size so the home team gets an advantage from that as well, and some teams couldn't host a regional anyway, I'm looking at you Union.
                  MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

                  It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

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                  • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                    Originally posted by Riz View Post
                    Obviously the current system is broken, and this COULD potentially fix it.

                    What I'd like to see, is the "Super regional" with 8 teams idea with a west and an east site. The west alternates between ACCESSIBLE cities for visiting fans to get to (St. Paul, Denver, maybe Omaha, Milwaukee, or Detroit also). The east alternates between accessible cities there (Boston, New York City, Philly, and maybe some others like Pittsburgh).

                    The brackets could still be seeded with two teams coming out into the Frozen Four. It could be a four day tournament at each site. Seats would be a lot more full, bracket integrity would be better, and sites would be more neutral for everybody then the #1 seed hosting idea, which I do think is important to the NCAA to some extent. Also, with the #1 seed what happens to fans of visiting teams that want to travel and watch their team play? That should ALWAYS be strongly encouraged in a regional team format and some cities, such as Duluth are extremely hard for visiting fans to get to.
                    This always comes up. Super regionals are not feasible. There are only a scant few facilities able to accommodate 8 teams at one time, and you'd have to clear a minimum of 8 practice times the day before if you split the games into 4 days - and that in itself is intolerable. Want to compress it to 2 days? Now you need 16 practice times. And if your answer is sharing locker rooms, you're out of your mind.

                    If you know any history of what a logistical disaster a 6 team site was, you'd immediately realize that adding 2 more teams only exacerbates all the problems.

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                    • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                      Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
                      Well a couple of points. First, Fargo is further from Grand Forks than Manchester is to Lowell, so by that logic we should not allow Lowell state teachers college in Manchester either. Same goes for Worcester and Holy Cross or any number of other eastern teams. Just because UND has rabid fans who travel well is no reason they shouldn't be a host. Though I admit no one wants to go to Fargo and play them. Especially Scott Sandelin.
                      Second, having a top team host is too much of an advantage,what with not only the home rink, but also some rinks are not Nhl size so the home team gets an advantage from that as well, and some teams couldn't host a regional anyway, I'm looking at you Union.
                      There is simply no way to compare the Boston/Lowell situation, with so many teams packed into a small area, and fans of all the teams vying to purchase tickets, and the possibility of some neutral ticket purchasers also, with the situation in North Dakota.

                      Here is how it goes along the Red River of the north. There is a huge natural rivalry between UND and NDSU. NDSU, of course, is in Fargo, but has no hockey team that is important for this conversation. Scheels' seats about 5000 I think. Any seat not devoted to one of the other 4 schools, or devoted to the NCAA, will be purchased by UND fans. It's only 70 minutes down I-29, and those fans are very accustomed to driving long distances in wide open spaces to go anywhere. It's NOT a hurdle to them at all. Remember, UND is the host school because they bid for it.

                      And, in this case, it's not fair to BU and to UMD. The only reason for it is that, many years ago, the Hockey Committee petitioned the NCAA for a waiver to go to a 16-team tournament, because they thought they were about to be in a boom situation. That boom has not happened.

                      It's time to do something else.

                      I don't care, really. I think campus hosts for 2 rounds is best. Give the #1 seed a bonus. If the logistics are too small for that, or the NCAA is afraid of a school with a small barn ending up hosting, then try something else, like:

                      2 Super Regionals. As has been discussed here. One in the east, one in the west, in places that have proven to be central, and draws. St Paul, Detroit, Denver maybe in the west. Even, Duluth at Amsoil. Put 8 teams at each place. Play 2 games Friday, 2 games Saturday, and 2 games Sunday at each place. Friday winners play each other, so rest is equal.

                      Whatever, but make it more fair. (And, I know, Duluth wouldn't be fair in this situation unless they were a #1. It was just for example.

                      And, edit: I just saw MacInnes' post, and those are good points. Still, something needs to change because the present arrangement gives us emptiness at Cincinnati and Toledo, and NoDak playing home games even though they are the #3 seed.
                      Last edited by Numbers; 03-20-2017, 03:55 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Numbers View Post
                        Correct, to me. UND should not get the advantage of rabid home fans filling the building when they are not the highest seed.

                        And I would say the same about Minnesota at St Paul or at Mariucci, if they were not the #1
                        If it is simply a matter of Rabid North Dakota fans can't we just give them a Rabies shot which turns them into normal hockey fans (or human beings) for the weekend??

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                        • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                          well what if you had a higher seed host the weekend and they lost the first game? then you have a completely empty barn in that case also.
                          I don't see any really good solution, but really to me it's a big problem in only one regional, the mid west. Everyone else is at least breaking even. And if i'm a Penn State fan as an example, am I going to the Tech game, next weekend, and spend 7 hours in the arena. Probably not, so saying there will be a great environment, I can't see it happening even at a home rink because half the fans aren't showing up for the other game. Except in North Dakota of course.
                          MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

                          It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

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                          • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                            I think that people here are over reacting to the potential home ice advantage for North Dakota and Providence. There will probably be more Lowell fans in Manchester than PC fans in Providence and even North Dakota fans in Fargo. Let's say North Dakota gets 4000 of those 5000 seats. That is far less than BU is used to playing against if at BC or Lowell or UNH for that matter. If anything BU thrives on those types of atmosphere games which is on ice that UND is not familiar with either. UMD may well not even have to play UND so that may be moot. It may well be UMD's regional to lose as they draw tOSU which will be without their senior top scoring by far defenseman under DQ. Don't forget there are not home ice officials from these supposed home teams leagues officiating. Familiarity with the officials is hugely overlooked in home ice non league games. Having attended the BC-UND game in MSG, that was a big disadvantage to BC since the NCHC was hosting the event, as calls and non calls are called differently by different leagues. BU if they play the way they can, they should handle UND. Having seen all 4 teams play this year, Harvard likewise should handle PC. Again it is not PC's home rink. In my opinion Harvard is the team to beat in this tournament. Perhaps the team with the biggest potential for home ice would be Notre Dame if they could make it to Chicago which is essentially their home city.

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                            • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                              Originally posted by oldchfan View Post
                              If it is simply a matter of Rabid North Dakota fans can't we just give them a Rabies shot which turns them into normal hockey fans (or human beings) for the weekend??
                              No.
                              Believe it. Earn it. Raise it.

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                              • Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

                                Originally posted by BC/HE View Post
                                I think that people here are over reacting to the potential home ice advantage for North Dakota and Providence. There will probably be more Lowell fans in Manchester than PC fans in Providence and even North Dakota fans in Fargo. Let's say North Dakota gets 4000 of those 5000 seats. That is far less than BU is used to playing against if at BC or Lowell or UNH for that matter. If anything BU thrives on those types of atmosphere games which is on ice that UND is not familiar with either. UMD may well not even have to play UND so that may be moot. It may well be UMD's regional to lose as they draw tOSU which will be without their senior top scoring by far defenseman under DQ. Don't forget there are not home ice officials from these supposed home teams leagues officiating. Familiarity with the officials is hugely overlooked in home ice non league games. Having attended the BC-UND game in MSG, that was a big disadvantage to BC since the NCHC was hosting the event, as calls and non calls are called differently by different leagues. BU if they play the way they can, they should handle UND. Having seen all 4 teams play this year, Harvard likewise should handle PC. Again it is not PC's home rink. In my opinion Harvard is the team to beat in this tournament. Perhaps the team with the biggest potential for home ice would be Notre Dame if they could make it to Chicago which is essentially their home city.
                                Providence will outdraw Manchester...just watch and see. Happened the last time the regionals were in these two cities with BU/Yale in Manchester and PC/BC in Providence.
                                Yes I am the former member known as Zlax45

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