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The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

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  • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

    You people seem to forget it is this way in EVERY Division III sport. This is not a problem exclusive to hockey. Committees are organic on a yearly basis. As people change on the committees what they view as holding more weight changes. No committee in any Division III sport, or probably the other two levels, picks the tournament field the same way every year - except for DI hockey with the Pairwise. Which will never happen in DIII hockey since the criteria for selection are (ostensibly) the same from sport to sport.

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    • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

      Originally posted by snc11
      Are we talking about the Obama Administration or D3 hockey?
      you call that a administration, dont get me started.

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      • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

        Originally posted by bakdraft21 View Post
        you call that a administration, dont get me started.
        +1

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        • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

          Speaking of post season, Matthew Webb has been spotted.
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          • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

            Originally posted by norm1909 View Post
            Speaking of post season, Matthew Webb has been spotted.
            If that ain't pastrami in the Hobart slicer you've got the wrong ambiguous beast.
            I wish I am able to live long enough to do all the things I was attributed to.

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            • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

              Originally posted by snc11
              If it is "fairness" you want, then the committee would do away with the flawed criteria and get out and watch the teams play. There is no way that all three Pool C bids should come from the east as the "criteria" indicates. A look at this decades Champions and Runner-Ups tells you all that you need to know about the "fairness" of including a 4th or 5th team from the West (4 of 5 National Champions and 7 of 10 to appear in the Championship Game). If it is true "fairness" we seek then straying away from the "criteria" shouldn't bother us like some indicate it does. The committee has control over only 4 of the 11 teams that move on. That's all they are deciding. Four teams. They've done that pretty well. Seven teams write their own destiny. Last year, 2 of the 4 teams chosen by the committee ended up in Maine (one was knocked out by the eventual champion and one lost to another Pool C). I'd say that's a pretty good percentage. They had a success rate of 50% when it came to picks moving on (to the final four). The conference tournament process produced only 29% (2 of 7) of the teams moving on to the final four. It may be time to stop dissing the smoke-filled room and acknowledge that they can get it right. The "criteria" sucks and we all know that.

              L25 = Stupid (who you plays has much more to do with L25 than how you play)
              Win% = Stupid (ECAC East…enough said)
              SOS = Stupid (unless you have a separate SOS for the East and a separate SOS for the West)
              RNK = Stupid (since the other stupid criteria help create the RNK)
              H2H = The ONLY criteria that makes any sense (but not enough H2H games to be effective)
              Every year there's somebody(s) who is totally dissatisfied with the process. Many years it's because it treats their team "unfairly", or their region "unfairly". Most of the "we got robbed", and "the system sucks" occurs after their team/region has been eliminated from the level of contention they thought appropriate. This year I'm truly impressed by the early nature of "the system sucks" comments.
              Since the current system is obviously based on stupid criteria, could someone please come up with the perfect system? That should keep us busy through the off-season.
              The "Miracle" was winning the Gold Medal Game against the Finns. I'm biased, I was there.

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              • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

                Not to beat a dead horse, but when you consider that Plymouth is the favorite to get in from its conference, and are 47th KRACH, it's really hard to make a cogent argument for the validity of the current system.

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                • Originally posted by Fishman'81 View Post
                  Not to beat a dead horse, but when you consider that Plymouth is the favorite to get in from its conference, and are 47th KRACH, it's really hard to make a cogent argument for the validity of the current system.
                  The same is true across all levels of all sports. In basketball, I'd bet that the 12th place team in the Big Ten would beat whoever comes out of the MAAC, but the 12th place Big Ten team is not going to get a spot in the dance and the MAAC champion is. Winning your conference should mean something. It's all relative and subjective.
                  Norwich '13

                  2017-2018 Last Person Standing Champion

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                  • Originally posted by NU Pastime View Post
                    The same is true across all levels of all sports. In basketball, I'd bet that the 12th place team in the Big Ten would beat whoever comes out of the MAAC, but the 12th place Big Ten team is not going to get a spot in the dance and the MAAC champion is. Winning your conference should mean something. It's all relative and subjective.
                    You're wasting your time my friend.....
                    Remy Babineaux
                    remyb616@gmail.com
                    D3FHL Web Page

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                    • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

                      Originally posted by snc11
                      You framed your comment around my post. My post is basically saying that the committee only picks 4 of the 11 teams and they've done a pretty good job of coming up with the right teams despite the crappy criteria. The criteria needs to be thrown out the window. What replaces it? In my opinion, head-to-head is the only tie breaker. Without a head-to-head match up, they have to decide which team would be stronger on any given day. Many say that Trinity got hosed last year. My question is, "Who should they have replaced?" Geneseo who made it to the final four? No. I think the committee got it right.
                      Let me get this straight, you want a group of people to toss out any and all criteria and just use their "opinion" on picking the last 4 teams? Have you seen our Eastern Committee?? Yea that will go over well. The criteria is not perfect and some down right "crappy", but to quote the legend..."It is what it is"! Even with their criteria we've seen teams not make it and or being placed lower/higher then they should have. I however, do NOT want to see a pure numbers criteria. There are too many ways of dodging the numbers game. Look at the ECAC West. Such a high SOS yet only have 3 NC wins over teams with a .600 or higher winning %, one being Curry and Nichols. Like you said (I believe) the last 25 should hinder more on WHO you played. Rank, keep in mind it use to be MORE teams and then the "once ranked always ranked" so even if an average team was ranked 11th on the secret first ballot, teams could use THAT win to help them in the final RANK. And once again....if you're 3-1 vs the #8, #9, #10, and #11 its greater then 2-1 vs #1 (two wins) and 1 loss to #2.

                      Is there a better way? Sure, open up more games so we can get more East / West and interconference games. But then, that's still not enough. Just look at Plattsburgh. Thanksgiving weekend Plattsburgh gets smashed by Norwich 1-5. So if it was a 1 game head to head, clearly Norwich was a +4 goal better then Plattsburgh. Yet just a few weeks later Plattsburgh beats Norwich 4-1. So does that mean Norwich is still a +1 goal better then Plattsburgh? I'm sure my opinion is different then that of Dunning. So then we move on to non-associated teams. Well I've seen Hobart a handful of times, and a couple other DIII teams. Does that mean my opinion will be the same as others? No. Plain and simple. This isn't the NHL, NBA, where you have games every other night and play everyone a couple times.... or even the NCAAB where you have a million Pool C bids. It may not be the best, but at least we don't have Condoleezza Rice determining who should play for a National Championship.... Instead for the East we get a Co-Chair who has little to no connection to hockey other then she is a faculty members at Geneseo (who has a hockey team), an AD who was a baseball coach, and another who was on the Women's Basketball Committee....unacceptable IMHO. And we wonder why we have such a cluster **** in the East. This job should be for hockey people and hockey people ONLY, period. I would much rather include some of our DIII Media who actually follow hockey on a regular basis and understand the concepts of the game. Maybe I am completely off my rocker, but I don't think the above mentioned have the slightest amount of hockey knowledge compared to some of our media. From what I've been told of some of the committee members, I am not far off.
                      Remy Babineaux
                      remyb616@gmail.com
                      D3FHL Web Page

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                      • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

                        I have said it before and I will say it again - go ahead and complain about the at-large teams selected and how that happens, but that usually means you are forgetting the underlying premise of the NCAA post season: The NCAA operates NATIONAL championship tournaments, not championship tournaments of the best teams in that sport.

                        I will expound.

                        As the schools & NCAA have chosen to structure the tournament (D3 hockey and everything else except for Football Bowl Subdivision) as tournaments with the conference champions to represent the breadth of the membership, with at-large teams tossed into "round out" out the field.

                        Let's use D1 basketball as the example. As noted, the 12th B1G team is likely better on almost any given night than the MEAC or Atlantic Sun champion. But that's not important. The NCAA operates a national tournament, offering automatic bids to the conferences. And (except for the Ivy League, IIRC), that goes to the conference tournament champion. At the start of the conference tournaments, every conference-affiliated team in the country (non-Independents) can make the NCAA tourney. And, sometimes, as with Cal Poly last year, a team with a losing record makes it to the dance. Cinderella. Given her & the tournament's popularity, it would seem most people are accepting of this format.

                        What the tournament is NOT is a someone's definition of the 68 best teams in the country. Doing so would mean Cal Poly and the MAAC or some other conference you've never heard of would never make the tournament. And all of those moments of Florida Gulf Coast or George Mason making memorable runs would be gone.

                        Now, if you accept that entire premise, let's talk D3 hockey. The margin for error is much smaller for the regular season champions. If this year's Wisconsin Badgers men's hoops team doesn't win the B1G tourney, we all know they still get in the dance. Same for Big 12, ACC, Big East, Pac 10, and so on for multiple conferences. But for us, with just the three at large bids, that cushion is much thinner - and perhaps non existent for several teams.

                        So, you can complain about how those three at large teams are chosen - and with the lack of cross-region play (especially as compared to bouncyball), there will always be complaints. (Especially from us westerners, who conveniently like to forget there are twice as many teams playing out east...) But the fact of the matter of that this is NOT designed to be the best 11 teams in the country. And, every single one of us knows long before now that you have one thing in your control: win your conference tournament. Or start praying.

                        You may not like it. You may want to have the regular season champion get the bid. You may not like the criteria. That's all fine. But I really don't envy the people who have to make the decision on teams 8-9-10-11. They offer criteria to guide the process. That helps, but we all know (or should know, IMHO) that it CAN'T be perfect - and that two different groups of people can look at the same information and make different decisions.

                        And if you want a tournament of the best 11 teams, go convince the NCAA to get rid of ALL automatic bids. And let's see the complaining when the split becomes 10-1 east one year, or 8-3 west another year! Given the choice, I accept the current format because every team has a legitimate chance (however slim) of winning their conference tournament. (And I admit that some of this viewpoint comes from the non-hockey conference for SNC: The Midwest Conference is not as strong as our neighbors the WIAC, MIAC and CCIW, but we know that we will get a shot at them come tournament time). There is always hope come February, regardless of how poorly you played until then. Cinderella doesn't exist quite the same way for D3 hockey, I guess, but the concept is the same: this is a national tournament.
                        Last edited by GB Puck Fan; 02-27-2015, 11:16 PM.
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                        • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

                          Originally posted by snc11
                          You framed your comment around my post. My post is basically saying that the committee only picks 4 of the 11 teams and they've done a pretty good job of coming up with the right teams despite the crappy criteria. The criteria needs to be thrown out the window. What replaces it? In my opinion, head-to-head is the only tie breaker. Without a head-to-head match up, they have to decide which team would be stronger on any given day. Many say that Trinity got hosed last year. My question is, "Who should they have replaced?" Geneseo who made it to the final four? No. I think the committee got it right.
                          I haven't been around here long enough, nor do I feel knowledgeable enough, to know how it should be done. I do enjoy (to some unatural extent) hanging aroung these forums at this time of year, learning from others some of the history, and their perspectives, of D3 hockey teams & tournaments. Although not a Math professional like NUProf, I still spend a silly amount of time trying to figure out who is ranked where, and why.
                          Right now I kinda like Puck Fan's perspective - it's a "national" tournament, with at least a chance for some "national" representation, no matter who wins their conference tournaments. It's not a "8 best D3 hockey teams" tournament. That would take away a lot of the intrigue.

                          In the meantime, You're right, I did.
                          The "Miracle" was winning the Gold Medal Game against the Finns. I'm biased, I was there.

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                          • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

                            I've thought that D1 is a national tournament while D3 is a series of regional tournaments that crown champions that then compete for a national championship (sort of like Minnesota HS).
                            CCT '77 & '78
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                            • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

                              Originally posted by joecct View Post
                              I've thought that D1 is a national tournament while D3 is a series of regional tournaments that crown champions that then compete for a national championship (sort of like Minnesota HS).
                              +1
                              LakerEagleLover

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                              • Re: The polls - scratching KRACH, PWC, CoP and robbery! ...---...

                                I've never been a big fan of the philosophy that says "everyone gets to play", whether it be in Little League baseball or D-3 hockey. If our society doesn't reward merit, well, this is what we get... (And what we have, BTW, across the board on a national scale, and certainly not just in terms of hockey.)

                                To compare berthing a 47th-ranked team in an 11-team field in D-3 hockey to gifting a few bottom-feeders a one-and-done in the 68-team March Madness is to compare apples and oranges. It's really not even worth discussing; every team that has a legitimate shot at the hoops title gets in, while every single year, some sacrificial lamb from a hopeless conference will take-up precious space in the D-3 PS.

                                Most of the arguments I hear to the contrary are either hopelessly biased or just plain moronic. Let's just say, for instance, that Plattsburgh gets displaced by Plymouth State this year... I'll hear the girl howling all the way down here in Utica.

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