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  • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

    Palm Sunday. When I attended church, I usually got a palm leaf on this day... which was thrown out when I got home.
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    • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

      Originally posted by joecct View Post
      Not officially, but non Protestants were pretty much at the bottom. And then if you weren't mainstream you got looked down on.

      It was not until the mass immigration that Catholicism became "mainstream" and we always had those "restricted" associations that kept the Jews down. "Enlightenment" didn't come until the 60s in law. In practice it takes a lot longer.

      We should not have a theocracy but we shouldn't have a secular society either.
      (Kepler-on-the-road) Religious freedom was something that in practice used to be a favor that the Protestant majority was granting the rest of us. The educated had let it all go but were content to let the Thumpers think they were something special because it didn't hurt anything, so the illusion persisted for the masses. But non-Protestants are large enough now that we're insisting on real equality, even in situations where they don't want to grant it as a gift, so they have the sads.

      This is happening in every other situation: race, gender, choice. The big shock that the dominant group has received is that American ideals aren't their personal property. They are enraged that those ideals are bigger than them, so they are acting out like spoiled children. The fell "oppressed" but what's really going on is they are finding out they're not special. For a snowflake that provokes a lot of anxiety and feelings of being picked on.

      It's been uneven in time: in the most progressive areas this transition from a false equality to a real equality started happening a hundred years ago and was complete fifty years ago. Now it's happening in the tipping point public culture: the schools, the media. So for the first time the orcs in the backwaters can't avoid it, and they are screaming like stuck pigs. But unless they actually resort to massive The Troubles level violence this ends with them finally being dissolved into the larger American culture. What we're seeing is the melting pot: after hundreds of years of isolation and fanaticism these Talibanesque tribal rubes are finally getting the American Treatment. It's transitional: within a few generations their herpa-derp parochialism will no longer be a national problem.
      Last edited by Anne85; 03-25-2018, 03:44 PM.

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      • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

        Every time parishioners start reciting the various creeds and such during Catholic Mass, I hear "We are the Borg..." It's eerily reminiscent in the feeling I got when hearing a thousand voices all speaking in unison, using a droning cadence.
        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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        • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
          Every time parishioners start reciting the various creeds and such during Catholic Mass, I hear "We are the Borg..." It's eerily reminiscent in the feeling I got when hearing a thousand voices all speaking in unison, using a droning cadence.
          Well the Nicene Creed has been around since 325 or so and we can all probably recite it from memory. It Is a personal affirmation of Faith as it begins "I believe in one God...", not "We believe..."

          Fun fact. Public recitation of the Creed did not occur until the "reforms" of V2. Prior to that the Creed was recited privately by the Priest and we all genuflected at "and was made Man..." (et homo factus est).

          You'll find the Nicene Creed in a number of faiths, particularly those that have a Mass. I know the Lutherans still have it, though Catholic is small "c", not big "C". I would assume the Anglicans would too.

          I believe in one God,
          the Father almighty,
          maker of heaven and earth,
          of all things visible and invisible.

          I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
          the Only Begotten Son of God,
          born of the Father before all ages.

          God from God, Light from Light,
          true God from true God,
          begotten, not made,
          consubstantial with the Father;
          through him all things were made.
          For us men and for our salvation
          he came down from heaven,
          and by the Holy Spirit
          was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
          For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
          he suffered death and was buried,
          and rose again on the third day
          in accordance with the Scriptures.
          He ascended into heaven
          and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
          He will come again in glory
          to judge the living and the dead
          and his kingdom will have no end.

          I believe in the Holy Spirit,
          the Lord, the giver of life,
          who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
          who with the Father and the Son
          is adored and glorified,
          who has spoken through the prophets.

          I believe in one, holy,
          catholic and apostolic Church.
          I confess one baptism
          for the forgiveness of sins
          and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
          and the life of the world to come. Amen.
          CCT '77 & '78
          4 kids
          5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
          1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

          ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
          - Benjamin Franklin

          Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

          I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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          • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

            When the Anglicans do it, instead of kneeling they all just rattle their jewelry.
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            • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

              Originally posted by joecct View Post
              Well the Nicene Creed has been around since 325 or so and we can all probably recite it from memory. It Is a personal affirmation of Faith as it begins "I believe in one God...", not "We believe..."

              Fun fact. Public recitation of the Creed did not occur until the "reforms" of V2. Prior to that the Creed was recited privately by the Priest and we all genuflected at "and was made Man..." (et homo factus est).

              You'll find the Nicene Creed in a number of faiths, particularly those that have a Mass. I know the Lutherans still have it, though Catholic is small "c", not big "C". I would assume the Anglicans would too.
              You're focusing on the individual words rather than the experience. While a much more sever of an example, people who were alive during a certain period during, say, the 1930s might get the same feeling from current rhetoric that we're witnessing now. The words don't have to match up exactly for that to occur.
              "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

              "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

              "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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              • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                When the Anglicans do it, instead of kneeling they all just rattle their jewelry.
                I figured you were going with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZcKTGtVhsA

                Cornell '04, Stanford '06


                KDR

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                • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                  You're focusing on the individual words rather than the experience. While a much more sever of an example, people who were alive during a certain period during, say, the 1930s might get the same feeling from current rhetoric that we're witnessing now. The words don't have to match up exactly for that to occur.
                  You would prefer we said the Creed privately?

                  I detect a prejudice against Catholics here. Am I mistaken?

                  Sure we're different. We believe in a set inconvenient (uncomfortable) truths that are in conflict with modern society. So?
                  CCT '77 & '78
                  4 kids
                  5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                  1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                  ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                  I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                  • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

                    Originally posted by joecct View Post
                    You would prefer we said the Creed privately?

                    I detect a prejudice against Catholics here. Am I mistaken?

                    Sure we're different. We believe in a set inconvenient (uncomfortable) truths that are in conflict with modern society. So?
                    I'm marrying an ardent Catholic, and attend Mass weekly now. I like most of the people I meet. There's just the Borg factor to Mass when some 600 voices (normal Mass) are all droning out the same thing, in what sounds like a disinterested voices.
                    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                    "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                    Comment


                    • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

                      Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                      I'm marrying an ardent Catholic, and attend Mass weekly now. I like most of the people I meet. There's just the Borg factor to Mass when some 600 voices (normal Mass) are all droning out the same thing, in what sounds like a disinterested voices.
                      The problem there is the disinterest, not the Creed. Any religious creed should be said joyously, even shouted ecstatically, not muttered robotically. You're participating in the mystery of divine love in the presence of your (in this case literally) motherf-cking supernatural deity, ferchirssakes, you're not going over a shopping list.

                      It isn't Catholicism that turns the vast majority of people into lowing cattle, it's their own lack of curiosity, imagination and, in a word, soul.

                      The Pentecostals are morons but at least they're doing it right.
                      Last edited by Kepler; 03-27-2018, 10:06 AM.
                      Cornell University
                      National Champion 1967, 1970
                      ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                      Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                      • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                        Every time parishioners start reciting the various creeds and such during Catholic Mass, I hear "We are the Borg..." It's eerily reminiscent in the feeling I got when hearing a thousand voices all speaking in unison, using a droning cadence.


                        And when the wafer and wine are transubstantiated into the body and blood, how is that not cannibalism? Do I need to bust out the CCC and re-read that part?

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                        • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

                          As a lapsed Protestant, reciting the Apostles' Creed felt boring and monotonous. (mumble mumble)sufferedunderPontiusPilate, wascrucifieddeadandburied (mumble mumble)

                          And since God is blocked by a school door, as Fundies believe, I don't know why we're bothering with Biblical Easter. God might as well be scratching lottery tickets and drinking Mickey's outside a local convenience store.
                          Facebook: bcowles920 Instagram: missthundercat01
                          "One word frees us from the weight and pain of this life. That word is love."- Socrates
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                          • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

                            Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                            I'm marrying an ardent Catholic, and attend Mass weekly now. I like most of the people I meet. There's just the Borg factor to Mass when some 600 voices (normal Mass) are all droning out the same thing, in what sounds like a disinterested voices.
                            All of this. My experience with church when little was in a small, very personal church where everyone knew everyone and praying for each other was heartfelt. When I went to Christmas Eve Mass for the first time with mr les (lifelong Catholic, parents taught CCD) I was horrified. No one was saying the words with feeling. It was like they were robotic. Even the Priest was saying everything with no inflection. I joked it was a race to see who could finish first. People were thoroughly disengaged. They were in church, check off the box, get credit therefore no going to hell for them. Pretty much the same experience every Catholic Church I have been in. That and 3/4 of them leave before the end of Mass. I bet they have no idea what the end of the Mass actually says. That gets me every time. Like they are in a drive thru or a cafeteria. GO down the middle aisle carrying coat, pocketbook, various paraphernalia, stick the hand out for the wafer, whiz down the aisle and shoot out the door.

                            In talking with the Fa-in-law Catholics go because to not go is a sin. Lutherans going is an optional thing. You have grace no matter what so the people going for the most part are there willingly instead of to check off the box. No one leaves before the end of the service. No one would even think of it.

                            Maybe small Catholic churches are different?
                            Last edited by leswp1; 03-26-2018, 08:01 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                              All of this. My experience with church when little was in a small, very personal church where everyone knew everyone and praying for each other was heartfelt. When I went to Christmas Eve Mass for the first time with mr les (lifelong Catholic, parents taught CCD) I was horrified. No one was saying the words with feeling. It was like they were robotic. Even the Priest was saying everything with no inflection. I joked it was a race to see who could finish first. People were thoroughly disengaged. They were in church, check off the box, get credit therefore no going to hell for them. Pretty much the same experience every Catholic Church I have been in. That and 3/4 of them leave before the end of Mass. I bet they have no idea what the end of the Mass actually says. That gets me every time. Like they are in a drive thru or a cafeteria. GO down the middle aisle carrying coat, pocketbook, various paraphernalia, stick the hand out for the wafer, whiz down the aisle and shoot out the door.

                              In talking with the Fa-in-law Catholics go because to not go is a sin. Lutherans going is an optional thing. You have grace no matter what so the people going for the most part are there willingly instead of to check off the box. No one leaves before the end of the service. No one would even think of it.

                              Maybe small Catholic churches are different?
                              Depends on the person and it depends on the catechesis coming from the rectory and the chances.

                              And frankly the Novus Ordo Mass is bland and most of the music (why is there music anyway) is awful. They don't call it the Ordinary Form for nothing.

                              Try an Anglican Ordnariate or a Traditional Latin Mass. Much richer and the parishioners are more engaged.
                              Last edited by joecct; 03-26-2018, 10:03 PM.
                              CCT '77 & '78
                              4 kids
                              5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                              1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                              ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                              - Benjamin Franklin

                              Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                              I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Religion Thread: ...and suddenly, everyone's a theology scholar

                                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                                You would prefer we said the Creed privately?

                                I detect a prejudice against Catholics here. Am I mistaken?

                                Sure we're different. We believe in a set inconvenient (uncomfortable) truths that are in conflict with modern society. So?
                                He's commenting on the form, not the substance, Joe. That's patently obvious.

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