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USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

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  • #31
    Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

    Originally posted by giwan View Post
    Speed is a skill nothing more. Skill comes from ice time and purposeful practice. Jumping to D1 has more to do with recruiting practices and money available.
    Ah, no. Speed, and skill get you to D1. No speed, no D1(usually), regardless of skill.

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    • #32
      Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

      Originally posted by Hux View Post
      Ah, no. Speed, and skill get you to D1. No speed, no D1(usually), regardless of skill.
      Missing the point that SPEED is a skill, it is/can be learned.

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      • #33
        Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

        Originally posted by giwan View Post
        Missing the point that SPEED is a skill, it is/can be learned.
        Can't agree with that one. Skating technique is a skill that can be learned and proper skating technique will definitely increase your speed but if you are slow to begin with you will only improve your speed slightly. The saying "you can't teach speed" applies to hockey as well.
        ...and whadaya know, it's another freshman...

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        • #34
          Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

          Originally posted by giwan View Post
          Missing the point that SPEED is a skill, it is/can be learned.
          Last time I checked a great deal of it was genetic.

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          • #35
            Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

            Originally posted by Hux View Post
            Last time I checked a great deal of it was genetic.
            I suggest you recheck

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            • #36
              Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

              To a certain extent, I'd say both sides are correct. Skaters do get faster through hard work, just like runners do. But the fast kids improve their speed as well, so all else being equal, the D-I programs would rather go after the speedier players. Obviously, there are other attributes like size or great hands that can sway teams to accept less in the raw speed department.
              "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
              And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

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              • #37
                Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                I think the point pakidnyc was making was that the "speed of the game", not skating speed, hurts girls who play Tier II. There are plenty of girls at Tier II who are as "fast" as girls who play Tier I - especially in a straight line - but these girls are not playing a "fast game", and this will most likely hurt most of them when they try to move to the next level.

                Here is the way I explained it to a friend of mine who went with me to watch some Tier I prospects (boys) who were playing at at an Elite Tier II level. In particular, there were two kids that were lighting it up and both were very "Fast" skaters. My friend was impressed. I told him watch them and when you see a play develop slowly say to yourself 3 times what you think they should be doing. For example, when a player was open up the wing - "make the pass, make the pass, make the pass", or "take the shot, take the shot, take the shot", or "go pressure, go pressure, go pressure". Invariably, the players did the right thing, but they almost always did it on the 3rd statement. At Tier II level, the pass was still open and the shot was still there on #3, but at Tier I it will not be. At Elite Tier I, the play isn't usually there at #2 either. In other words, the player must see the play and react much faster at Tier I than Tier II. At DI, you are moving up another level - it gets even faster.

                A tier II player having played years at a "slower game" hasn't been forced to "play fast". Does that mean a Tier II player can't succeed at Tier I? No, kids can make it, but far far more can't make the adjustment.

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                • #38
                  Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                  I like your description 96IllinoisDad. I tell people its like baseball. When you move up an age group, the ball goes faster. The pitching is faster. The speed at which the ball comes off the bat is faster. The players have to react faster.

                  Same thing happens from high school to college to pro. Basic skills are there, but the speed of the game gets faster. So the players anticipation/reaction have to be faster.

                  That doesn't mean someone who works hard can't learn. But a college coach isn't going to spend too much time/effort in teaching someone when they can get someone who's been there/done that.

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                  • #39
                    Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                    Originally posted by Hockeydad4two View Post
                    I like your description 96IllinoisDad. I tell people its like baseball. When you move up an age group, the ball goes faster. The pitching is faster. The speed at which the ball comes off the bat is faster. The players have to react faster. Same thing happens from high school to college to pro. Basic skills are there, but the speed of the game gets faster. So the players anticipation/reaction have to be faster. That doesn't mean someone who works hard can't learn. But a college coach isn't going to spend too much time/effort in teaching someone when they can get someone who's been there/done that.
                    Playing devils advocate are you then saying that all of MN HS Girls hockey (or other HS girls hockey) plays at a Tier 1 level?

                    Add to that, since every step up is faster no one could advance because it's faster.

                    Take this to another level. The NHL, and specifically I will choose a couple of players off the Red Wings. Pavel was playing in a lower level league, passed by many many teams and what is the result? Same issue was with Zetterburg.

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                    • #40
                      Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                      Not all of MN high school girls get scouted to D1. It's mostly only the ones playing on the top teams and then some goalies. The top MN high schools certainly are D1. Plus many of these girls are used to playing high level boys hockey which is faster than the girls' game.

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                      • #41
                        Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                        Having a daughter who has played at the higher end of both levels I would agree that the pace of the game, reaction and decision time and top end skill level are the biggest difference. The play at T1 is more consistent as well because even at Nationals in T2 you would see teams with girls of highly varying experience and talent level. Most T1 teams seem much more evenly matched.

                        Some T2 teams take any and every girl that wants to play as opposed to most T1's having very competitive try outs. Some teams are limited to T2 simply because of geographic limitations such as the Texas team but often play at the higher tier level in tournaments. Others simply could not compete locally in T1 so they go T2 if they want to be National bound.

                        The other big difference my D found was ice time and practice. Particularly practice where the pace and difficulty is generally governed by the weakest player. T1 was much more overspeed, structure and systems than T2.

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                        • #42
                          Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                          Originally posted by giwan View Post
                          I suggest you recheck
                          I'm with Cali and Hux on this one. Yes speed can be improved by technique and practice, but some are just faster than others to begin with due to their physical make-up, and they would get that from...........their heritage/lineage/genetics....There is also the fast vs quickness factor to consider. At the highest levels quickness is probably even more important than pure speed. Quickness gives you more space and time.

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                          • #43
                            Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                            Originally posted by ARM View Post
                            To a certain extent, I'd say both sides are correct. Skaters do get faster through hard work, just like runners do. But the fast kids improve their speed as well, so all else being equal, the D-I programs would rather go after the speedier players. Obviously, there are other attributes like size or great hands that can sway teams to accept less in the raw speed department.
                            Will draw from my Exercise Phys. education a bit here. Speed certainly does have a genetic factor, having to do with the proportion of slow twitch, fast twitch, and intermediate muscle fibers. While some are predisposed to speed and others to endurance based on their genetic makeup, either can be improved through proper training.

                            ARM's point is well taken - you can expose a group of athletes, some of whom have raw speed, and others who are not as gifted, to the same training protocol, and those who were slower will gain speed, but the faster ones will too.

                            The slower player will make the greatest gains by improving technique and power, but that doesn't mean that skater can ever be faster than the one who started with a genetic advantage if all else is equal.

                            Clearly there is room in the game for both speed and power players - Jen Hitchcock and Sam Faber come to mind as examples of both who used their individual attributes to be prolific goal scorers.

                            The pace of the D-1 game is faster, and it is a no brainer that a recruiter is going to look for the fastest player with the best skills because repetiton and teaching systems will improve puck handling and game sense more than speed. That said, a smart player who is not as fleet of foot can be very deceiving if they see the ice well, know where to go to create the best advantage, and move the puck well.

                            My old coach used to tell us "If you're quick, you don't need to be fast."
                            Last edited by DC78-82; 04-05-2012, 08:32 AM.
                            "A ROCK BAND IS NOT A PERFECT DEMOCRACY. IT'S LIKE A SPORTS TEAM. NO ONE CAN DO WITHOUT THE OTHER, BUT EVERYBODY DOESN'T GET TO TOUCH THE BALL ALL THE TIME." Don Henley

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                            • #44
                              Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

                              Originally posted by HockeyEast33 View Post
                              Addressing the 2nd question. USA Hockey has very specific guidelines about the team make ups for Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams.
                              USA Hockey has no rules in the make-up of Tier 2 teams. The affiliate do, and they have something in their rules. There is no consistency from one affiliate to the other. TAHA (Texas Amateur Hockey Association) is the affiliate here for USA Hockey in the Rocky Mountain District. TAHA does not allow any out-of-states boys to play Tier 2 by rule. Slightly different for girls as there are about 18-20 boys for every girl in that plays in Texas and Oklahoma (TAHA cover both states).

                              The best way (for me anyway) to describe the difference between Tier I and Tier 2 is to look at the gap (bottom of curve) from the best player to the bottom player. The other players are in between, with majority of players in the middle (the top of that curve). That gap is much wider (say here in Texas) then say in MA. In MA you may have more girls towards the top end (3-5), then here (1 or 2).

                              To overcome that gap we played at the highest possible 19U level when we traveled. Nike Bauer & Polar Bear where always played at the AA level. Locally the girls played boys teams at the Midget A level and in 3 years were 4-40-6. Until Tier 2 started in 2009-10 season we played at Tier 1 and CO Selects soundly beat us in the RMD Tier I Championship each year. We were Tier 1 lite and the last 3 years have confirmed that. With this move to Tier 1 and playing in the Tier1 Elite league the team here will actively recruit players, both in and out of the state.

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